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marshhawk
Average Member



100 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2012 :  12:47:34  Show Profile Send marshhawk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At range yesterday I had a perfectly round pinhole appear at the edge of the primer/pocket on firing. This was Winchester large rifle primer with twice fired Federal brass (.260 cal) with just over starting load for Speer 140g. Never happened before. Thoughts to cause?
Thanks,
Tony

Currently reloading for 6.5mm Swedish, 7.5mm Swiss, 7.7mm Japanese, .260 Remington, .280 Remington

BISCUT
Moderator



3501 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2012 :  15:22:30  Show Profile Send BISCUT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by marshhawk

At range yesterday I had a perfectly round pinhole appear at the edge of the primer/pocket on firing. This was Winchester large rifle primer with twice fired Federal brass (.260 cal) with just over starting load for Speer 140g. Never happened before. Thoughts to cause?
Thanks,
Tony




Picture would help a lot.
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Quack Addict
Senior Member

USA
210 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2012 :  15:33:53  Show Profile Send Quack Addict a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by marshhawk

Federal brass


The problem is right there. Federal brass is the worst commercial brass I have seen. A couple months ago a friend of mine had a new manufacture (not old stock) Federal FACTORY load blow a pinhole in the side of the case just above the case web. Remington 700 / 243 Winchester. He was wearing eyeglasses at the time and one of the lenses was ruined by the gas that blew out through the back of the bolt.

Based on personal observation, Federal's brass quality issues are nothing new. I have 30-06 FC brass over 10 years old that has massive inclusions visible to the naked eye. here is one I pulled out of my scrap bin a while ago. Those aren't rust specs, they are inclusions in the brass from the time when the case was extruded. Garbage in, garbage out principle.



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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member



USA
3667 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2012 :  16:18:58  Show Profile Send ethmoid1999 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Been hearing bad things on here about Federal brass. I'm not buying any!
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marshhawk
Average Member



100 Posts

Posted - Jun 08 2012 :  19:46:14  Show Profile Send marshhawk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Luckily I only have 20 pieces of Federal for the .260. Biscut, I'll see if I can get a macro pix on here. Thanks

Currently reloading for 6.5mm Swedish, 7.5mm Swiss, 7.7mm Japanese, .260 Remington, .280 Remington
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possum
Junior Member

Canada
48 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2012 :  01:36:22  Show Profile Send possum a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WOW!!! after hearing and seeing this i likely won't be loading any of the once fired FED brass i have. Thanks for the heads up guys, i have been having problems with WIN brass, weights are way off and cracked after one or two loads and its not even close to max. I have had the best luck with REMINGTON brass. but up here where i live it's tough to get brass of any kind

You Gotta Watch Where You Go And Remember Where You Been
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260james
Senior Member

224 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2012 :  10:27:42  Show Profile Send 260james a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have been using Remington brass in my .260 and have been pleasantly surprised at the accuracy and durabilty of this brass. I have never been a great fan of r-p brass but in .260s i believe it is the best compromise between quality and price. Lapua brass is so dang expensive anymore. That being said , I have 50 rounds of once fired brass that was given to me that I never have touched other then to make dummy cases to work out magazine issues. In the past i have used federal brass in .25-06, .338 win mag and 7 mm rem mag. and was never really happy with it. I always wind up with winchester brass.
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Paul B
Advanced Member

3316 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2012 :  17:13:45  Show Profile Send Paul B a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was given 1,100 rounds of once fired federal .308 Win. Gold Medal Match brass. I know positively for a fact that they are truly once fired. The primer pockets are quite loose. I'm thinking all they will be good for is some light cast bullet loads.
Paul B.
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marshhawk
Average Member



100 Posts

Posted - Jun 09 2012 :  19:13:50  Show Profile Send marshhawk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting, 260james. Up til now I'd been using Remington brass in the .260 without problems. I finally "retired" the batch when I reached 11 reloadings, even though it still looked decent and showed no case head problems. Good stuff, I guess. I will continue to cautiously work with the Federal, just to make sure it wasn't a primer anomaly.

Currently reloading for 6.5mm Swedish, 7.5mm Swiss, 7.7mm Japanese, .260 Remington, .280 Remington
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Quack Addict
Senior Member

USA
210 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2012 :  17:35:50  Show Profile Send Quack Addict a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have several thousand once-fired Federal commercial 223 Rem brass (FC headstamp, non-military, no crimped primers) and the primer pockets on about 10% are really loose. On a few, I pushed the seated primers out with a straightened paperclip with minimal effort.

I'm not sure what is going on with Remington right now. They seem to have put the brakes on reloading components. A friend of mine sent them an email a couple months ago to see what was up and their response was something along the lines of they are cutting (or shutting) down sale of reloading components for whatever reason and they have no plans to resume for "some time".



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260james
Senior Member

224 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2012 :  17:47:21  Show Profile Send 260james a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To marshhawk, i am sticking with the Remington brass. I have a load worked up and tested for over two years. I have only used Reloder 17 with these cases and not babied them at all. The cases are still in very good shape. I have been neck sizing them only and no problems have arised. I will add that the reloder 17 is the key to a .260. I am not gonna give my load data to anyone, but If you work up to a good safe working maxium in your particular gun the results can be amazing.
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ranger335v
Advanced Member

1633 Posts

Posted - Jun 10 2012 :  18:05:05  Show Profile Send ranger335v a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"I had a perfectly round pinhole appear at the edge of the primer/pocket on firing."

A primer wall failure is no indicator of a 'bad case'.

All makers get their case (and primer) brass in large rolls of sheeting from metal suppliers. None of them smelt and roll their own so claiming any brand is automatically much different from others is misleading, at best.

Federal brass is slightly softer than others but it's plenty strong enough to handle proper chamber pressures. Being a little softer allows it to last a bit longer for reloaders but not if we over load it. Enlarging primer pockets is one of the most reliable signs of over pressure reloads.




Edited by - ranger335v on Jun 10 2012 18:29:49
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Bad Flynch
Senior Member

USA
297 Posts

Posted - Jun 11 2012 :  08:22:09  Show Profile Send Bad Flynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That small hole at the primer-primer pocket junction is most likely an indication of either a) high pressure or b) primer wall failure. Mostly, it means that the working pressure has exceeded the working limit of one or the other component.

You have not stated what your powder was, but sometimes a low load gets into what is known as the "pressure-escursion phenomenon." That is a case where low loads do not burn properly and give much higher pressure than loads with more powder. The fix, oddly enough, is to get the powder charge up a little. Under some obscure circumstances, low powder charges have blown up rifles and pistols, but most often not.

B.F.
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marshhawk
Average Member



100 Posts

Posted - Jun 11 2012 :  22:09:36  Show Profile Send marshhawk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some good stuff to work on. Thanks, all. The load was .5g over the minimum starting charge of R-19 listed in Speer's load data for the 140grain DeepCurl bullet. (these are Hexagonal Boron Nitride coated bullets). There were no other indications of overpressure such as flattened primer or hard extraction.

Currently reloading for 6.5mm Swedish, 7.5mm Swiss, 7.7mm Japanese, .260 Remington, .280 Remington
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Quack Addict
Senior Member

USA
210 Posts

Posted - Jun 12 2012 :  00:12:37  Show Profile Send Quack Addict a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ranger335v

[i]
All makers get their case (and primer) brass in large rolls of sheeting from metal suppliers. None of them smelt and roll their own so claiming any brand is automatically much different from others is misleading, at best.

Federal brass is slightly softer than others but it's plenty strong enough to handle proper chamber pressures. Being a little softer allows it to last a bit longer for reloaders but not if we over load it. Enlarging primer pockets is one of the most reliable signs of over pressure reloads.


I'll agree with you that case manufacturers probably don't make their own brass but just because they buy the raw material does not mean they all get it from the same source, or the composition is the same, or the incoming quality is similar. For turning out finished product (brass cases), different manufacturers use different production equipment and proprietary processing designed to maximize profit. And like I said: Garbage in, garbage out.

Brass manufacturers aren't necessarily coming to the table with the reloader's best interest in mind. Federal just came to the reloading component market a year or so ago. At least until then, their end goal was a brass case that went 'bang' - safely - 1x.

I have never seen inclusions like I posted a picture of in cartridge brass of different manufacture, nor 10% scrap on 1x brass due to loose primer pockets. My .02, I have seen better quality come out of China...



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Savage99
Average Member

82 Posts

Posted - Jun 12 2012 :  11:29:58  Show Profile Send Savage99 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
marshhawk,

Please post a picture of the failure.

Here is a failure that seems to be from a primer.

The cause seems, to me, to be an inclusion in the metal when the primer was formed.

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