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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2012 :  23:11:28  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will figure out a load with H.TiteGroup for this bullet in the 7.62X39 for about 1,000 fps, definitely subsonic, for my Remington Spartan single shot X39 Rooski rifle.



The bullet has a boat tail base that works for low velocity but will also fit a gas check for high velocity. This is an interesting bullet that may get new people into casting! The mold is the new TL309-230-5R from Lee. It casts about 221 grains in my BHN 17 alloy and drops at .3125" diameter which is big enough to size for any of my 30 cal. rifles.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Quack Addict
Senior Member

USA
209 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  13:35:53  Show Profile Send Quack Addict a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's cool. I never got on the 300BLK bandwagon but a friend of mine did. It seems like a waste to me to shoot up a bunch of jacketed 30-cal bullets like he was when at our normal range. If you cast your own and bring the price point down, it makes more sense though.

I mess around with reduced loads in a lever 30-30 and 30-06 bolt rifle on occasion. One of the powders I have had good luck with is SR-4759.

I think my friend with the 300BLK was using H110 powder with 220gr RNSP's, but I wouldn't personally pioneer load data with H110 in an application like yours due to the pressure characteristics of that powder.



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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  15:54:36  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quack Addict:

I'm betting these will shoot fine about 1,000 fps and will be great for squirrel. My Single shot X39 has shot better every time I have tried heavier bullets in light loads.

The nose on this bullet is only .300 so I can seat them way out there in my single shot to engage the lands without a magazine to worry about. They look stranger than a 300 Blackout. I am in full hunting season now so these projects are on pause for a bit.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Rapier
Advanced Member



USA
605 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  17:09:43  Show Profile Send Rapier a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Try looking up JDs load data on the web, it is there for the 300 Whisper. But your case capacity is quite a bit more than a 221.

While working to get a full functioning AR with the 6.5 Grendel using the 160s at a sub load I discovered that seating the bullets very deep in the case and running them .004 over, increased the resistance and dropped the SD. I use .268 Cacarno bullets in my .264 Grendel barrel. I also tried H-110 as that is a powder JD uses in the Whisper the Grendel based on the 39 case had to much capacity for the H-110. However I found joy with AA-2015 at 1067 with .5 inch groups at 50. My SOS by altitude is 1117 and is dead on the money, the calculations are on the internet and Google earth will give you altitude readings.

In a sub load the SD is critical as the higher the SD range the lower the velocity must be to take case of the velocity fliers. So if your area specific speed of sound is 1100 and your SD is 150 you must stay under 950. Get your SD to 20 and your velocity top goes to 1080. That is a big difference if shooting hogs at night with a laser and a can, as I am doing.

Good Luck,
Ed

Life is simpler when you plow around the stump.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
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TxTickPkr
Advanced Member

USA
1540 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  19:18:44  Show Profile  Send TxTickPkr an AOL message  Send TxTickPkr a Yahoo! Message Send TxTickPkr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Onondaga, you are really on to something here. I've been thinking of a subsonic 7.62X51 and have found that loaded ammo is available. Another source indicates the powders handloaders can use but no actual loads. TrailBoss is the only one I remember right now but they all push 175 gr bullets. I wanted to get the BC up for the advantage as with the 220 and 230's used in 300 Whisper/ Blackout but my Armalite AR 10 is 1 in 10 twist. What's the twist on your bolt 7.62 X 39 ? Does it stabilise your cast 221 gr bullet? The case capacity of the 39 being less than the 51 makes it a much safer platform for experimentation with sub sonic loads but I will be interested in your results. That's a VERY interisting projectile and may be just what I've been looking for.

Those who relinquish liberty for security deserve and shall have neither.
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Quack Addict
Senior Member

USA
209 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  20:17:02  Show Profile Send Quack Addict a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TxTickPkr
That's a VERY interisting projectile and may be just what I've been looking for.



With a couple little ones running around the place I don't have the time or desire to cast my own. I have purchased from these guys in the past. These pills might be worth a look... 245gr, 20 brinell



http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=182&category=6&secondary=&keywords=




Edited by - Quack Addict on Oct 19 2012 20:17:35
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TxTickPkr
Advanced Member

USA
1540 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  20:40:24  Show Profile  Send TxTickPkr an AOL message  Send TxTickPkr a Yahoo! Message Send TxTickPkr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Those are great, do they offer a pointed for higher bc? Oh Yes of course you sent a link. Whataguy!

Those who relinquish liberty for security deserve and shall have neither.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  20:52:10  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quack Addict:
I have about 11 lbs of WC820 and it loads with H110 data. I am not going to try it first. I have had ignition irregularities with it in my .500S&W Mag rifle loads at moderate velocity with 350 gr cast bullets when not using BPI Original Ballistic filler. It gets erratic velocity with reduced loads in that cartridge.

On the other hand I have had very good results with H TiteGroup charges as low as 2.8 grains in .223 Rem with 60 grain bullets subsonic. A 3.0 gr load groups .6 inch at 50 yards at 1160 fps. groups get bigger either side of that charge. Hodgdon literature on TiteGroup states that tiny charges with that powder even work very well in .357 Mag.. Hodgdon had no data to give me for .223 or 7.62X39 but they also gave me no warnings. The TiteGroup lights very well in big capacity cases.

I will have to get my Chrono back from an out of town friend before I start shooting. My gut feeling says to see what velocity I get with 4 grains. I will go with that. I think the worse that could happen is that I get a bullet stuck in the bore. I can deal with that.

I don't have high hopes for my BHN 17 alloy at low velocity, It is too hard for low pressure low velocity loads. I will cast some from BHN 8-9 range scrap alloy. The hard bullets will be for medium pressure/velocity in .308 and 30-06 with the bullets gas checked and sized for those rifles.

Quack, I'm honestly surprised you are doing well with BHN 20 alloy bullets. Of course the Bullet diameter is the most important factor. My Bullets drop at .3125", that is the diameter that works best in my X39 rifle. I have a push through Lee bullet sizing die I have honed to .3125 that they will be run through as a quality check before loading.

My .308 and 30.06 both like cast bullets at .3105" and I have a bullet sizing die honed at that size too. So, that die will size/check bullets at .3105" for those rifles.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Oct 20 2012 01:43:40
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  21:03:59  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TxTickPkr:

My X39 rifle is a single shot break open, not a bolt rifle. It is the Remington Spartan made by Biakal in Russia and imported by Remington and others.

I have a new scope on it now replacing the cheapo in this photo that came with the rifle. Barrel twist is 1:10 Slugged bore ID G to G is .3098" and chrome lined. I have polished the bore to a hard slick shine and it loves cast bullets.


A better picture of the bullet, you can see it has a tiny flat nose and gas checks fit fine.

Gary


Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Fred_C_Dobbs
Advanced Member



678 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  21:43:52  Show Profile Send Fred_C_Dobbs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Engel Ballistics sells a subsonic 7.62x39 loaded with 220-gr soft tip that is supposed to cycle either AKs or ARs.

If your bullets won't stabilize at SS velocities, try shooting them backwards. It'll mess up your gas check but most bullets have better static stability going butt-first than they do point first. You might even be able to shoot a substantially heavier bullet than you thought possible. For bonus points, blunt-nosed bullets have better terminal effects than pointy bullets at SS velocities.

I'll bet ya a hundred and five thousand dollars you go to sleep before I do.
-- Dobbsie
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 19 2012 :  22:08:42  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fred_C_Dobbs:
Thanks for the link, I checked it out. Sounds like somebody is doing it well for the 7.62X39.. I don't have to worry about cycling an action in my application so I have a little more leeway. But if you have any info on the charge they use , please let me know. Their charge would certainly work as a start for me to work around as my bullet weight is almost identical.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Oct 19 2012 22:12:48
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TxTickPkr
Advanced Member

USA
1540 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2012 :  01:50:51  Show Profile  Send TxTickPkr an AOL message  Send TxTickPkr a Yahoo! Message Send TxTickPkr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was set to go for an M4 configured .300 whisper/blackout and American Rifleman had a test info artical in it this month. The accuracy reports were disapointing and with the SS 220's was around 3.5". That's totaly unacceptable even with the revelation that a supressor was not used. What's the point of that irrevelant test? If my AR 10 will throw the 221 or the 245 cast bullets at SS velocity at anything near 1" I'm a happy boy. Thanks so much for the leads. Of course I will try the 220 Siera Match Kings but if it doesn't stabalise perhaps the cast pills will.Too much to work on it now but soon.

Those who relinquish liberty for security deserve and shall have neither.
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Fred_C_Dobbs
Advanced Member



678 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2012 :  12:39:35  Show Profile Send Fred_C_Dobbs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gary, I've not been able to pin down the Engel's 220-gr load, but I did find this whilst I was looking:

****************************************************************
Reader Submitted Reloading Data - Subsonic
200gr cast - Red Dot 4.5gr = 900 fps (Steve VanSlyke)
200gr cast - Trail Boss 5.5gr (better load density) = 900 fps (Steve VanSlyke)
200gr Lapua - N310 7.0gr = 970 fps (very quiet through suppressor)
200gr Lapua - 700X 6.0gr = 985 fps (very quiet through suppressor)
180gr RN - N310 6.0gr = 1000 fps
180gr RN - Red Dot 6.0gr = 930 fps
180gr RN - 700X 5.8gr = 970 fps (very quiet through suppressor)
150gr RN - N310 5.5gr = 990 fps
150gr RN - Red Dot 5.5gr = 980 fps
150gr RN - 700X 5.1gr = 990 fps
** Read this article before attempting to load subsonics.


Rules for the safe operation of subsonic loads:

1. Drill Case Flasholes to 3.5mm (9/64") to allow all the primer flash to enter the case and ignite the powder completely.
2. Use Magnum Primers for maximum primer flash and better powder ignition.
3. Lube all bullets. Moly is good, animal fat is better.
4. Lubricate the bore regularily while shooting.
5. Never crimp bullets into cases. Never seat bullets "into the lands."
6. Try not to use powder charges of less than 40% load density.
7. If load density is less than 40%, use tamping or fillers to keep the powder at the bottom of the case.
8. Make sure the bullet exits the bore after each shot.
9. Use only the fastest burning pistol powders - N310, N312, Bullseye, Clays, Titewad, HP38, Red Dot.
10. Any sort of slow ignition or hangfire is a warning of iminent Secondary Explosive Effect (SEE).
****************************************************************

I've got SS AK loads on my 'To-Do' list but haven't got to it yet. For my money, it's a better option than 300Blk because I already have a Polish underfolder and a .30 suppressor. Not that I object to building another AR but I just don't have a burning desire to spend big bucks on a rifle to shoot 200-gr bullets @950+/- fps when I already have handguns that shoot 230-grainers @850 fps. Now a SS big bore, like a .458 SOCOM, something that'll let me shoot 500 grainers+, that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish ...but it'll also require a new suppressor.

I'll bet ya a hundred and five thousand dollars you go to sleep before I do.
-- Dobbsie
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2012 :  13:02:56  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fred_C_Dobbs:

Thank you very much for the data and link.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2300 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2012 :  16:35:18  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fred_C_Dobbs:

Again thanks. Reviewing the article noted the author's discussion about the internal volume of the 7.62X39 being nearly identical to the 44 Mag cartridge with seated bullets and the suggestion of using 44 mag data for starting loads with same weight bullets in 7.62X39 did strike a lucky spot for me with my 220 grain bullet and Hodgdon TiteGroup that I have on hand. Hodgdon suggests 5.8 grains Titegroup starting a 220 gr bullet at 807 fps and max of 8.0 grains for 1066 fps. in the 44 Mag.

I have BPI original Ballistic Filler and Polyester batting filler if the volume of TiteGroup is below 40%. I suspect it will be. I do believe that H.TiteGroup is much cleaner burning and easier to light than the other powders listed. My Burn Rate chart shows H. TiteGroup with a burn rate equal to Red Dot and that is a plus also.

I am sure my longer 24 inch barrel will give higher velocity than the 44 Mag data but the start load will give me a base line to be chronographed and I can take it from there with online charge reduction software to a targeted velocity.

The author also praises the cast bullet as not having the lubrication problems that jacketed bullets have when subsonic. I will lube my cast bullets with one coat of 45:45:10 Recluse tumble lube before and then after sizing and I will also prepare some flash holes as he recommends.

You have provided great reference material.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Oct 20 2012 18:18:29
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Quack Addict
Senior Member

USA
209 Posts

Posted - Oct 20 2012 :  18:05:45  Show Profile Send Quack Addict a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga
Quack, I'm honestly surprised you are doing well with BHN 20 alloy bullets. Of course the Bullet diameter is the most important factor.


Gary,
I don't have a 300BLK, just saw the bullets I posted the link to while buying some other stuff from MBC recently. The 20BHN may very well be over the top for low pressure loads, depending on the rifle's bore diameter. If a guy called MBC, they might be able to specially cast something from softer alloy but then they might want a minimum lot size order as I know they run on production Magma machines.

I have had good luck with LIGHT loads of bullseye and Unique in my M94 30-30 pushing 165 grain cast pills and those are 18BHN.



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