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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - May 23 2013 :  15:31:09  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lee Lovers please don't flame me. I ordered the Lee Deluxe Quick Trim and 223 trimming die from FSReloading. Die goes in press, handle in closed mode, trim crank is turned on top. Has a .006 range of adjustment. If I understand trim length for 223, if over 2.560 it needs trimming, need to trim to 2.250 if you do trim. I have used the hand trimmer mandrel and drill or zip trim. Works OK but my mandrel is worn out on primer end and trimming too short. Ordered this new too, have not used it yet. Deluxe trim also champhers (spelling) case end. Trims from 2.256 to 2.243 (sometimes 2.238) never the same twice. Micrometer adjustment does not seem to affect trim length.Contacted Lee, they said it probably would not work for me because maximum case length is 2.260. I replied I did not understand. Looks like it would trim the same each time, even if the wrong length. The instructions say 5 crank rotations will do it - I can't get it close without 10-12-16 cranks. Brand new trimmer - has to be I am not understanding its use.

crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - May 23 2013 :  19:59:46  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tried Lee shell holder again and got the lost length back - miked both the Lee and RCBS shellholders and the Lee is .008 thicker between press ram and top. Still .001-.003 variation in trim length. Takes 25-30 cranks to trim. Anyone else tried one of these yet?
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  01:49:17  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
crash:

I have the Deluxe Quick Trim and got dies for .223 and .308.

I posted a review on another forum, the Cast Bullet Association.

The tool has been remarkably great for me. If your brass was rudely long the first time it will take some turning but after that it will be 5 or less turns.

The best feature of the Quick Trim in my review is that besides the adjustable trimming with a nice range the tool also does inside and outside chamfer simultaneously with the trimming. It eliminates 2 separate additional steps with repeatable regulated in/out chamfer.

Case mouth chamfer that is not done repeatedly even and regulated is a ballistic variable that will increase Extreme Spread of chronograph numbers on crimped ammunition because chamfer effects crimp grip on bullets. The new Lee Quick Trim is so even from case to case in the amount chamfer cut that I have reduced E.S. and group size on my loads with case mouth crimping and cast bullets. I am liking this tool a lot!

My new Lee stuff:
[URL=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/QuickTrim_zps042dc798.jpg.html]

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on May 24 2013 01:51:42
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  02:17:04  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
crash:

Your problem not understanding Lee's reply is that you may not understand the function of the spacer ring and when to use the spacer ring with the tool, that, along with setup instructions and operating instructions as given by Lee. The measurements you presented demonstrate your error as obvious. The tool will not do what you have stated to case length when setup and operated correctly.


The tool trims to a set maximum with a tolerance of up to .006" shorter than MAX SAAMI case length standard per die design caliber and shorter than that if you adjust the tool to do so. The adjusting clicks are very accurate per their claim with tool set up correctly and even press lever holding tension when operating the tool. The tool relies on your even pressure to hold the shell holder against the die bottom while operating for dead on accuracy. You will get used to this, I think that is a good feature.

Case head nicks protruding and primer pocket irregularities protruding will affect any trimmer that bottoms out relying on the case head flat(the same way your rifle bolt face does). If you are a fanatic like me about lowering E.S., you will have checked that and fixed any bad case head flats on an Arkansas stone. When your case heads are dead on flat, your case length trim with this tool will be dead on consistent with reasonable use of the tool.

Much of my career was as a pro technical writer.

Lee may need a new technical writer for their instructions. I'd love that job. I know I could make even my instructions simpler, shorter and more understandable for a few bucks incentive, but you will never be happy with this tool unless you truly understand the instructions and set the tool up correctly then operate it following Lee's instructions on press lever tension and crank force.


Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on May 24 2013 03:06:22
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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  06:59:35  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I trimmed some last night and reset the die, not all the way threaded in like instructions but set to cam over like a resizing die. This gave consistent pressure and better results. I cleaned everything with brake cleaner, recleaned every 50 rounds or so, used case lube on cutter and inside die top and bottom. Results were better and more consistent. Number of cranks was not. One micrometer click is close to .003 change in length. Just slow. The trimmer and I will come to an understanding soon. I guess .002 or .003 is not a big deal on non- target cartridges.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  13:34:30  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
crash:

Try to realize that the tool's micrometer clicked adjustment is based on a turns per inch thread of the related part. Threads per inch do not move or change adjustment on their own accord. Operators and methods of use do! Be patient. A press that cams over also introduces an error factor. This tool was specifically designed for the Lee single stage and breech lock presses. I use it with the Lee Classic Cast Turret and a single stage Lee Challenger without the BreechLock bushings. My Lee presses do not cam over at all.

Should you need to call Lee again, make sure you mention that your press has a cam over movement and tell them the model. They may have specific directions for the different tolerances of cam over presses that have not been added yet to the directions for this new tool.

The Lee instructions for this tool state to turn the die in until the end of the thread stops. That means FULL in to the stop. I have no idea how that relates to the cam over position on your press but I believe your setting should be locating the shell holder firmly against the die bottom BEFORE the press cams over... The die should NOT be set with the ram up. Sorry for capital letters, I am not yelling, just trying to be as specific as I can.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on May 24 2013 13:51:22
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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  22:16:00  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lee knows it is in a Rockchucker. I tried it with the die full in - as you stated earlier pressure must be constant - hard to do with holding lever down with one hand and crank cutter with other. If you set it all the way in as instructed press is 1/2 closed with shell in die. Results more consistent with cam over. Lee thinks too much pressure on crank - case spinning in die. They say 20 turns to trim is way too much. I am doing 30 or more. Will mark a case next to see if it is spinning in die. Have read all instructions 6 or seven times and tried these things. For sure don't use an rcbs shell holder. The spacer is not the ring but a ball inside the cutter that adds tension to campher the neck. Said may need to remove for cases smaller than 30 cal. I tried with ball removed and outside of case does not campher. Put ball back in. I think the trimmer is incredibly dull.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - May 24 2013 :  23:28:12  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
crash:

Your body/ergonomics disagree with lever position. Adjust your position to match the directions. There are several videos online showing body position with the correct high press lever position.

You can setup and operate your tool to own desires instead of the directions and design, and you can also cause the "O" rings to let the cases slip with incorrect crank pushing force. That will not lead to being happy with the tool.

The near 1/2 closed looking position is correct and it brings your 2 operating hands closer together, this is intentional to the design. I think you will wander into the correct crank pressure by trial and error even without following the directions and observing your results.

I started slow with mine and made an effort to understand the parts and feel what is going on while following the directions.

The crank pressure is a range of utility that works correctly with the tool and doesn't spin cases in the "O" rings. You may also have gotten excess lube on the "O" rings by oiling excessively or excessive case size lube. They shouldn't be dry or over lubed either. They are Neoprene "O" rings, that is common sense not covered in depth in the instructions. Don't ignore the Lee technical people that are trying to politely guide you to success with your new Lee tool that you are unhappy with. They want it to work as well for you as it does for the guy that designed the Quick Trim at Lee Manufacturing.

I just followed the directions carefully and mine works fine for me.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on May 24 2013 23:30:27
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - May 30 2013 :  18:36:44  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Crash:

NOTE also that you have confused cartridge overall length with case length of the .223 Rem.

.223 Rem cases can be trimmed from 1.740 to 1.760 inches.

The length you gave 2.256 to 2.243" are cartridge overall lengths and not brass trim lengths.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - May 30 2013 :  22:30:46  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, but my manuals say 1.750 rather than 1.740. BTW, Lee is sending a new cutter and die. Not supposed to spin.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - May 30 2013 :  23:42:49  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
crash:

Search ANSI drawing of the .223 Rem. this will show the industry standard maximum for your brass to function. Brass may be trimmed considerably shorter and still function fine. Customarily, .223 Rem is trimmed .004- .006" or more shorter than ANSI MAX.:
https://www.google.com/search?q=223+cartridge+drawing&safe=off&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_h-oUcuHGtLF4APNuIHwDw&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=664

The 1.750" mentioned in your manual is .010 shorter than the ANSI standard for .223 Rem and your manual is giving you a suggested trim length for your brass, not a maximum or minimum work order specified to be obeyed or be punished.

As you gain experience Crash, you will realize that cartridge LOA measurements,(Not saying brass measurement here) in loading manuals are only recommendations based on the particular rifle and particular bullet the author was using.

Best accuracy is usually obtained with jacketed bullets seated .005- .020" short of bullet contact with the leade of the chamber or shorter but as long as the magazine will permit. Certainly, book LOA numbers are NOT dogmatic and custom fitting your load to your rifle will be more accurate.

A decent inexpensive tool for determining Maximum OAL to contact with the leade for any caliber/cartridge/ bullet/rifle:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/190644/frankford-arsenal-cartridge-overall-length-gage

This tool measures directly from the bolt face to your specific bullet contacting your leade in your rifle. Then you will learn to ignore completely the book LOA numbers and custom fit your loads to your rifle.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on May 31 2013 00:19:30
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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - May 31 2013 :  06:21:36  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I trim as short as 1.743 my favorite Varget load (26 .1 gr ) will not fit and allow a bullet in there too.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member

USA
5463 Posts

Posted - May 31 2013 :  09:40:32  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As Gary notes trim length for .223 is 1.750.
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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2013 :  07:47:01  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, max case length 1.760, trim to 1.750. My old Lee trim mandrel is worn and trims too short - that is why I an upgrading. It trims to 1.740 (and more)which is too short for my needs.
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crash
Senior Member

207 Posts

Posted - Jun 01 2013 :  14:59:39  Show Profile Send crash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tried the new die body and it does not let the case spin. The new trimmer head will only trim as far as 1.760. I used the new die body and the old trimmer head and they work a bit better. Takes 15 to 25 turns to trim. So slow. I guess I will save up for a Lyman.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2419 Posts

Posted - Jun 02 2013 :  19:46:41  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Crash:

Looks like you haven't spent enough money yet. Try a power trimmer. Power trimmers compensate for not following directions and will even eat brass.

The Lee 4 blade areas of the Quick Trim, the Lee Ball Cutter used with the Zip Trim and the Forster trimmer cutter head are all similar designs made with similar tool steels. These all cut equally fast when doing only length cutting. The Quick trim isn't slowed down with 2 additional 2 additional procedures and performs 3 procedures at once.
So you are convinced that the Lyman will fill your designs, buy 3 Lymans because you will likely be wearing them out the way you expect the others to perform beyond and differently than their design and directions. It is not the tools, You just want what you want. The Forster is commonly recognized as higher quality than the Lyman or Lee. My Forster is back in the box. I'm using the Lee Quick Trim. It is better than the older Lee models or the Forster and it does 3 complete functions simultaneously. The new Lee design evidently has too much common sense for you to understand or appreciate.

Go get your 3 Lymans, you will never be happy with your Lee and you will never get it to work right.

Lee, Lee, and Forster:

[URL=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P6020151_zps2d242d3d.jpg.html][URL=http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/P6020152_zps8105bac5.jpg.html]

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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