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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 08 2017 :  17:32:06  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi fellas,
I acquired my reloading tools a while ago, and I havent used it much, so naturally, I almost forgot all that needs to be done.
I use fire formed brass, that suits my chamber, and I will determine OAL using dykem blue and loading the round into my chamber, just until its 0.005 behind the grooves.
Now, I will use standard Lee set for seating the bullet, and I have CH4D neck sizing die for the job, with interchangeable bushings.
From before, I know there is some catch with using bushings, and that I should neck size in steps, looking at the OD of the brass neck and bulled OD (if I recall correctly). Also, I wonder should I shave the neck with neck turner or should I leave it alone.
I m reloading 8x57 Mauser rounds this time (other CH4D neck die is for 6.5x47).
Any tips that might help me to recollect my lost memory are welcome lol :)










Edited by - UlicniTrkac on Mar 01 2017 18:09:10

Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Feb 08 2017 :  17:48:01  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
UlicniTrkac

It is mortally important to distinguish the difference between what you think you should be able to do and following instructions of the die manufacturers.

Review directions online if you have lost them and watch videos from the manufacturers, ignore Youtube opinions that are not from the tool makers.

Trying to make tools do what you want instead of what they are designed for and what the makers clearly state is deadly stupid in ammunition reloading.

Neck turning is only called for when you use non standard bullets, non standard chambers or non standard brass. Get the right stuff instead.

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Feb 08 2017 17:55:22
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9125 Posts

Posted - Feb 09 2017 :  11:28:12  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I disagree with Onandaga that neck turning is only needed for non-standard loading. That said, I doubt you will ever have to turn necks in 8x57 mainly because if your rifle is a military chamber which is generally cut quite loose in the neck area there just is never a need. As your 6.5x47 Lapua is a newer case design which the necks may thicken with repeated firings and if your rifle's chamber neck is tight may require case neck turning. Just keep an eye on your case necks and if they thicken to a point that neck expansion cannot occur you will need to turn to keep pressures safe.
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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 09 2017 :  14:28:10  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks fellas :) I m working on 8x57 now, 6.5x47 will come into play later.
Of course, my main concern is the safety. I did read the manuals, and I know how to use the equipment, but there are some things that are not in there.
I took some measurements on 10 cases previously fired in my rifle.

Neck OD of those fired cases, on all of them, was 0.359 (we use metric system here, so I have to recalculate everything lol). All of the measurements were taken by micrometers (inside and outside), with 0.0004 accuracy.
ID of those necks varied, from 0.325 to 0.329.
Now, if I want to turn necks, I found that for this caliber, it would be ok to have 0.015 wall thickness - but the pilot is .32/8 mm so I m not sure it will guide them as it should to have same dimension on all (or maybe I am wrong here?)
Next, the bushing on neck die I have is 0.343, which is small in this case - 0.323+0.03=0.353? Or is 0.01 wall thickness OK too? I can make another one, I have all of the equipment for the job.
Also, if I use the 0.343 bushing, the ID of the neck goes to 0.313 (and on classic Lee FL die I get a 0.321 ID) and I am worried its too tight?

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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Feb 09 2017 :  19:39:47  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
UlicniTrkac

Also consider that if your 8X57 is an old military rifle that they very generally can be made to shoot better with cast bullets than jacketed bullets when the chamber throat is worn big. The loads are a little lighter but a cast bullet that slide fits on chambering in an 8X57 will shoot better than a standard size 8mm jacketed bullet that is undersize in an old rifle and shoots all over the place. Typically, if you can't get jacketed bullets in 8x57 to shoot under a foot at 100 yards you can get a well fit cast bullet to group 2-3" @ 100 yards with military sights.

Well fit cast bullets bring new life to worn military rifles that shoot all over the place with jacketed bullets. Loads not over book start level for jacketed bullets work well with cast.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Feb 09 2017 19:52:25
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2851 Posts

Posted - Feb 09 2017 :  19:50:16  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After sizing the case, you want to measure your bullet, then the ID of the case mouth should be 0.002"-0.003" (0.0508 mm - 0.0762 mm) smaller than the bullet. This gives good bullet hold.
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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 10 2017 :  00:52:08  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks WonderMan4, I will do that.
Onondaga, this is a good advice for the other, older 8x57 I have, but the one I m gonna use these rounds is brand new - it shot total of 50 bullets, and I hold a pretty decent group with factory ammo in it. I just want to try to make it great!
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9125 Posts

Posted - Feb 10 2017 :  16:48:23  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
.010 is a little thin for a caliber as large as .323. I prefer to use a neck wall thickness of .012 to .015. It all depends on how tight the chamber neck is. I like to have a minimum of .005 of neck chamber diameter space to allow for expansion between fired brass and unfired rounds. If the measurement shrinks smaller than that, you can start to have problems. Even your new 8x57 barrel may be cut to military specs and have a generous neck dimension.

Your neck sizing bushing is not going to change the neck wall thickness. Measure OD of fired case and subtract OD of unfired loaded round. That gives the chamber neck clearance. To determine neck wall thickness simply measure OD of loaded round and subtract bullet OD of .323 and then divide by 2= neck wall thickness. Your neck wall turning tool will determine how much material is removed if turning and should be adjustable. You can also use a neck wall thickness micrometer to measure neck wall thickness.

Edited by - Shastaboat on Feb 10 2017 16:56:39
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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 13 2017 :  12:15:47  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Done the first run. Shaved the neck down to 0.12, to keep it uniform. Chamber neck clearance is 0.012, so I believe I am good to go. I havent crimped them at all.
I ll go ahead and make two new bushings, 0.347 and 0.349 to have them prepd for 0.012 and 0.013 wall thickness (if my math is right).
Still have to go to the range to test them out.
I am also considering the purchase of Lee Collet 2-Die Neck Sizer Set.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Feb 13 2017 :  16:18:42  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by UlicniTrkac


I am also considering the purchase of Lee Collet 2-Die Neck Sizer Set.




Success with the Lee collet neck sizing dies is dependent upon understanding them and how neck turning effects the Lee design. The mandrel part of the die is the sole part responsible for inside neck diameter as the collet squeezes the brass to the mandrel within the range of the collet function.

Lee offers custom made dies of this type and they require you send them fire formed brass from your rifle and a bullet sample to make the die. They won't make the die if it is out of their parameters due to neck turning or you send them turned but not fire formed brass. You gotta send them the right stuff for them to do the job right.

NOTE: turn around time on this service is substantial. Here are the Lee guidelines for ordering custom collet neck sizing dies in sets only:
http://leeprecision.com/collet-necksizing-dies/

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Feb 13 2017 :  21:49:33  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
UlicniTrkac

If you decide to go the custom die route with Lee I suggest you call them to discuss this and have at the ready and in hand, a bullet, a fire-formed ready to size case and a micrometer along with your neck turning goals and reasons ready to discuss.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 15 2017 :  01:27:44  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Gary, I wasnt aware of custom made ones up until now. I was thinking about the standard ones. I ve started thinking about it because a friend of mine uses them (for 30-06) and he is more than pleased. Stock ones are not that expensive to try them out. But will they work with shaved necks?
Range day is today, and I hope I ll have good results - I ll report back in.

Stefan
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Feb 15 2017 :  03:00:27  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
UlicniTrkac

The short answer is that if the mandrel fits into your fired brass with room to spare when you raise the ram the collet sizing die will work but if the mandrel drags,is tight or stalls on the way in that you won't be happy as the dies are designed to include spring back of the brass after sizing and also after seating the bullet for the bullet hold on the loaded round.

That drag on the mandrel can be caused by out of spec brass, bullets, chamber or brass wildcatted from another caliber. This, also, is why Lee needs to have samples of your fired brass and the bullet you use for custom die making.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 15 2017 :  19:39:51  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Gary, I ll keep that in mind.
Results on paper were so so (mainly because of my faults), but I got pretty much consistent speeds - 2460 fps +7 and -6 in all 10 samples I made.
The looks of the cases after firing








Edited by - UlicniTrkac on Mar 01 2017 18:10:05
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9125 Posts

Posted - Feb 16 2017 :  11:48:57  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Your loads are quite light for 8x57. You didn't say what weight bullet you are loading. Let me know what powders you have and weight bullets and I'll give you some loads to compare and work towards. The 8x57 is as good a round as 30-06. What length is your barrel. Also post a pic of your rifle. In my 8x57 with 18" barrel I can shoot to 2670 fps with 170 gr Speer; 2770 with 150 gr. In a 24" barrel I get about 150-200 fps more velocity with each load.
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UlicniTrkac
New Member



29 Posts

Posted - Feb 16 2017 :  12:56:59  Show Profile Send UlicniTrkac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OH :)
I use 200 grain Noslers and Sierra Match King, with Vithaouri N140. I got those speeds with Nosler Accubond yesterday. Let me see do I have an uploaded pic of my rifle, and I ll post it. My barrel is 597 mm (23,5").
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