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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 17 2017 :  20:46:37  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I want to reload practice ammo for my 44 Spcl using:

CCI large pistol magnum primers
Red Dot Powder and
Missouri Bullet Company's
165 grain TCFP (Cowboy #12)
in Hornady Cases.

I find recipes for 180 and 200 gr bullets w/ Red Dot,
But nothing with these 165 grain bullets.

Please help if you can.


Ray

Hockeynick39
Advanced Member



USA
4690 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  06:52:25  Show Profile  Send Hockeynick39 an AOL message Send Hockeynick39 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RaySendero

I want to reload practice ammo for my 44 Spcl using:

CCI large pistol magnum primers
Red Dot Powder and
Missouri Bullet Company's
165 grain TCFP (Cowboy #12)
in Hornady Cases.

I find recipes for 180 and 200 gr bullets w/ Red Dot,
But nothing with these 165 grain bullets.

Please help if you can.





Don't have any bullets from Missouri Bullet Company in my database. Created a new bullet using a cherry from Accurate molds that most closely fit the TCFP profile. Going to need barrel length and hopeful velocity for proper data. Otherwise, here is what I have with a 5 inch barrel:

Cartridge : .44 S&W Special (SAAMI)
Bullet : .429, 165, Accurate 43-165R
Useable Case Capaci: 27.580 grain H2O = 1.791 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.430 inch = 36.32 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch = 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant RED DOT

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 39 4.96 864 274 9907 3070 100.0 0.824
-18.0 40 5.08 879 283 10330 3135 100.0 0.809
-16.0 41 5.21 894 293 10761 3200 100.0 0.795
-14.0 42 5.33 908 302 11201 3265 100.0 0.782
-12.0 43 5.46 923 312 11648 3330 100.0 0.769
-10.0 44 5.58 937 321 12104 3395 100.0 0.756
-08.0 45 5.70 950 331 12568 3460 100.0 0.740
-06.0 46 5.83 964 340 13040 3525 100.0 0.725
-04.0 47 5.95 977 350 13519 3590 100.0 0.712 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 48 6.08 991 360 14007 3655 100.0 0.699 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 49 6.20 1004 369 14503 3719 100.0 0.686 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 50 6.32 1017 379 15007 3784 100.0 0.674 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 51 6.45 1029 388 15518 3848 100.0 0.662 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 52 6.57 1042 398 16038 3913 100.0 0.651 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 53 6.70 1054 407 16565 3977 100.0 0.640 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 54 6.82 1067 417 17101 4042 100.0 0.630 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 49 6.20 1026 385 16298 3654 100.0 0.647 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 49 6.20 972 346 12606 3812 100.0 0.739
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9125 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  08:40:30  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ray, You should have some ham and eggs with your recipe...
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  09:14:16  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shastaboat, No I like sausage and eggs with some grits on side.

Hockeynick30, Barrel length is 3".


Ray
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  09:28:40  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-06.0 46 5.83 964 340 13040 3525 100.0 0.725
Ok, So if I'm reading these numbers correctly:

I'll get a 46% fill of the loaded case volume at 1.43" cartridge COL.
with a charge of 5.83 grains
Predicting a muzzle velocity of 964 fps from a 5" barrel.

Ray
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member



USA
4690 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  18:41:59  Show Profile  Send Hockeynick39 an AOL message Send Hockeynick39 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RaySendero

-06.0 46 5.83 964 340 13040 3525 100.0 0.725
Ok, So if I'm reading these numbers correctly:

I'll get a 46% fill of the loaded case volume at 1.43" cartridge COL.
with a charge of 5.83 grains
Predicting a muzzle velocity of 964 fps from a 5" barrel.



Yes and here is the DATA () for the 3" barrel:

Cartridge : .44 S&W Special (SAAMI)
Bullet : .429, 165, Accurate 43-165R
Useable Case Capaci: 27.577 grain H2O = 1.791 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.430 inch = 36.32 mm
Barrel Length : 3.0 inch = 76.2 mm
Powder : Alliant RED DOT

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 39 4.96 694 176 9918 5767 97.1 0.612
-18.0 40 5.09 708 183 10342 5933 97.6 0.601
-16.0 41 5.21 721 191 10774 6095 98.1 0.591
-14.0 42 5.34 735 198 11213 6255 98.5 0.581
-12.0 43 5.46 748 205 11662 6412 98.9 0.571
-10.0 44 5.58 761 212 12118 6566 99.2 0.561
-08.0 45 5.71 774 220 12582 6716 99.4 0.548
-06.0 46 5.83 787 227 13055 6863 99.6 0.537
-04.0 47 5.96 799 234 13535 7007 99.8 0.526 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 48 6.08 812 242 14024 7146 99.9 0.515 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 49 6.20 824 249 14520 7281 100.0 0.505 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 50 6.33 837 256 15024 7412 100.0 0.495 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 51 6.45 849 264 15537 7543 100.0 0.486 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 52 6.58 861 271 16057 7672 100.0 0.477 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 53 6.70 872 279 16585 7802 100.0 0.469 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 54 6.82 884 286 17120 7931 100.0 0.460 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 49 6.20 854 267 16317 7157 100.0 0.471 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 49 6.20 782 224 12621 7219 97.4 0.550
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 18 2017 :  21:30:09  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thx again Hockeynick39!!!

I can add this:

My chrono reads a Hornady CD 165 FTX factory load
at 920 avg w/ a SD of 9.
That cartridge COL measures 1.470".
Don't know if that tells you any more that you already know.


Sooo, Would a 5.0 grain charge be a good safe starting point?



Ray
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member



USA
4690 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  06:30:36  Show Profile  Send Hockeynick39 an AOL message Send Hockeynick39 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RaySendero

Thx again Hockeynick39!!!

I can add this:

My chrono reads a Hornady CD 165 FTX factory load
at 920 avg w/ a SD of 9.
That cartridge COL measures 1.470".
Don't know if that tells you any more that you already know.


Sooo, Would a 5.0 grain charge be a good safe starting point?







How old is the pistol? If it's modern steel, I would start at 5.7 gr and go to 6. 2 gr. The accuracy node for your pistol is in there. The reason why the OAL for the TCFP is so low is because the crimping groove on the lead boolit is at .200". This puts it lower in the case than the Hornady bullet.
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 19 2017 :  11:49:27  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK - Thx again.

And Yes, Modern stainless steel with full diameter cylinder.
(i.e. no cylinder fluting.)

Ray
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 20 2017 :  15:59:18  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Outside of cylinders measures 0.065".

Ray
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 20 2017 :  23:54:56  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just curious to check those calculated velocities at 2 points.
Loaded 5 at 5.0 and 5 at 5.8 grains.
Here's a look at the loads and the bullet.
Bullet has a crimp groove - Cartridge OAL = 1.450:


Ray
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member



USA
4690 Posts

Posted - May 21 2017 :  08:13:09  Show Profile  Send Hockeynick39 an AOL message Send Hockeynick39 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
5.0 gr = 688 fps

5.8 gr = 773 fps
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - May 29 2017 :  14:44:58  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never used any, but a bulkier powder like Trail Boss or similar might be your friend, here. I LOVE RedDot/Promo for any number of applications, but it makes me plumb uneasy when small amounts go in larg(re) capacity cartridges. The work-up I glean from above is thoughtful and well founded, so I have ZERO argument with what's been written. Just please take whatever extra care you can to prevent a double-charge.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
812 Posts

Posted - May 29 2017 :  18:05:52  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Kosh.

>50% charge weight requires extra attention when loading for obvious reasons.

I like enough powder that I can see in the case before topping it off with a bullet.

I've heard of too many double charges in pistols to feel comfortable with such little case fill.




Treat that trigger like it’s your first date, not like you’ve been married to it for 20 years.
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - May 30 2017 :  12:58:47  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kosh, Zero,

I always use a loading block and load in up to 50 round batches.

My QC is to always look at the block with the powder charged level of each case,
Before inserting the bullet.

Ray
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jun 26 2017 :  10:04:44  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it sounded like I was questioning your reloader skills, I sincerely apologize. It was never my intent. Like you, I use reloading blocks, and check powder levels closely. But since I have such luck as that it if started raining SOUP, I'D be the only one equipped with a fork and a strainer, I tend to use a "belt & suspenders" philosophy, the latter of which involves using bulkier powders like Unique or Herco in larg(er) capacity pistol and revolver cases. Just saying...

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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