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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
810 Posts

Posted - Jul 16 2017 :  16:34:22  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
300 fps ? ouch.

Average velocity is good to know but I also like to know the ES of any given string.

Thanks for posting.

Treat that trigger like it’s your first date, not like you’ve been married to it for 20 years.
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2017 :  00:10:07  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, there's no arguing about the load being position sensitive. I researched 165 gr. projectiles and the 165gr. Lee TC seems to demand faster-burning powders for uniform ignition and good accuracy. Powders in the RedDot/700-X/WW231 range seemed to be the right medicine to make these very light projectiles fly right. I GUESS that running the risk of a double charge in a case is a lesser hazard than getting a projectile stuck in the barrel & firing off another right behind it.

The source I found suggested 6 - 8 gr./IMR-700X/165 Lee TC as a starting point, nd described 10.0/IMR-700X/165/Lee TC as "pretty zippy". Before trying that load, please check, double-check, and RE-Double-Check any loading data you can find. Somewhere, there simply must be a recommended target load for a 180gr. .429" wadcutter in .44 Special, from which a load for your 165gr. projectiles can be made.

An old (1970-1971) Lyman manual suggests 4.0/Bullseye/180(Lyman #429438) or 7.0/Unique/same projectile as starting loads. The first load gave 691 f/s from a 5.5"Colt SAA, and the second load gave 877 f/s from the same revolver.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2017 :  18:12:54  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Kosh...Here's where I looked prior to starting this thread:

Lyman 49th doesn't show a 165 gr bullet, but does show:
A 180 jacketed bullet w/ Red Dot at 6.4 to 7.1
A 200 jacketed bullet w/ Red Dot at 5.4 to 6.3
A 225 jacketed bullet w/ Red Dot at 4.9 to 5.7

Steve's Pages doesn't show a 165 gr bullet, but does show:
A 180 bullet w/ Red Dot at 5.6 to 7.1
A 200 bullet w/ Red Dot at 5.5 to 6.3

Alliant Powder doesn't show a 165 gr bullet, but does show:
A 200 jacketed bullet w/ Red Dot at 5.9
A 200 gr RCBS mould # 82307 w/ Red Dot at 5.9 (This is their cowboy action load)

So I had hoped Red Dot would be a good powder for these 165 Cowboy#12 bullets.



Ray
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2846 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2017 :  20:18:49  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I looked in all my older books and the lightest was a 173 gr cast. That was in the Ideal Lyman No. 38.
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2017 :  21:19:00  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the rest of my story:

While working up reduced reloads for my "wife's rifle" using H4895,
I ran loads from 85% down to 60% in 5% steps.
Found that the ES and SD were continually increasing as the powder charge was reduced.
Have read and had 2 reloading friends say to use a magnum primer to
Better light reduced powder charges when the cases wasn't full.
This thinking was based on the various geometry how powder maybe lying in the cases.

So...That's why I started with a magnum primer; again anticipating a low case fill.
And...That's why I was planning my "scientific experiment" from the start.

Now, I did find that there was no difference in the POI at 10 yards
Between the 5 shot string that averaged 850 FPS and
the 5 shot string that averaged 571 FPS!!!
So I guess you could use'em for practice just like they were at 5.2 grains.

Ray
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 18 2017 :  22:35:22  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hodgdon lists a load consisting of 4.8-7.0/TrailBoss/165gr. LRNFP for .44 Special. Velocities run from 865 f/s to 1005 f/s. I'm TRULY not trying to spend your money FOR you, but a bottle of this propellant might solve a lot of problems.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2017 :  06:36:42  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thx Kosh, I got to the Hodgdon site and found that load.
Must have missed it doing my info search.

Looks like I'm at a stopping point w/ the Red Dot load.

Let's do some brain storming.

I'm open to any and all suggestions.
Anyone have any other thoughts or suggestions?




Ray
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2017 :  19:05:46  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except for possibly splitting the difference and trying 5.5/RedDot/165, and seating the projectile so that the crimp goes just over its driving band (shoulder), I'd say you've done all you can. I'm not optimistic about the aforementioned change rendering miraculous results, but it's something you could try while awaiting the arrival of Trailboss <shrug>.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 19 2017 :  23:06:34  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
whoa...That's simple, doable and easily done quickly!

OK

Ray
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 20 2017 :  21:18:26  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Ray
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2017 :  14:36:18  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
10 Yards, Hornady 180 XTP = 836 FPS, COV 2.4%


Ray
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2017 :  14:42:34  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
10 Yards, 5.2 grs Red Dot powder forward 165 C#12 = 810 FPS, COV = 4.4%




Ray

Edited by - RaySendero on Jul 22 2017 14:46:12
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2017 :  14:45:26  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
10 Yards, 5.2 grs powder rear Red Dot 165 C#12 = 896, COV 2.2%


Ray

Edited by - RaySendero on Jul 22 2017 14:47:16
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2017 :  00:19:42  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ten percent variation in velocity... Perhaps not stellar, but a big improvement over +/- 300 f/s, I'd say.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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RaySendero
Advanced Member



USA
635 Posts

Posted - Jul 25 2017 :  12:19:01  Show Profile Send RaySendero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Big improvement - Thx

Think I'll finish-up this bottle of Red Dot.
I was only looking for an inexpensive plinking reload
that would shoot to the same POI as my factory loads from the start.
Notice that all loads shoot well to the same POA regardless of
powder position in case or the resulting velocity.

Ray
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