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thumbs
Starting Member

4 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2017 :  16:17:24  Show Profile Send thumbs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How fast can you push powder coated bullets? Just wondering if I need to go to gas checks or not.

Thanks

Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2017 :  20:48:06  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure I have a very solid answer, but Id INTUIT that you could push them to velocities higher than those tolerated by soft-cast projectiles, but less than are tolerated by hard-cast projectiles. I'm also not entirely lucid as to the composition of the polymer coat, but highest-usable velocities might vary with the type of polymer used.

I AM curious about one thing: If you DO end up having to gas-check the polymer coated projectiles, will the process be different than gas-checking conventionally lubed projectiles?

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!

Edited by - Kosh75287 on Jul 29 2017 20:50:44
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thumbs
Starting Member

4 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2017 :  21:58:34  Show Profile Send thumbs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok yes you can push pc bullets faster than lead. In fact in my usage it eliminates the need for lube and there is no leading. You can't push them to jacketed velocities but I was wondering how fast they can go.
On the gas checking thing. I have never did that. All I can say is what I have read and seen on youtube. The process is the same for attaching the gc to the bullet. Now the question is can you then push that bullet to jacketed speeds or close. I also saw a vid where a guy was gas checking a non gas checked cast bullet using coke can thin aluminum. You have to have the tool to "roll your own" gas checks for that one.

Thats about all I know. The question is can I get hunting velocities out of pc coated bullets? I am about 1050 or so now with no problems but really don't want to get much faster without good info.
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2851 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2017 :  21:58:46  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
I AM curious about one thing: If you DO end up having to gas-check the polymer coated projectiles, will the process be different than gas-checking conventionally lubed projectiles?


First please note that I do not personally powder coat bullets.

From what I have observed on CBA (Cast Bullet Association) forum, is that most gas check before powder coating.

Some guys leave the bullet base down when heating and this MIGHT leave the base exposed when it is taken from the pan.

Lots of guys are powder coating just like lots of guys clean with stainless pins.

Then, lots of guys still do it the old fashioned way. I am old fashion.

There was a member that was testing bullet lubes on the CBA and was consistently getting close to 3100 fps with plain wheel weights, not some special hardened alloy.

The results were amazing. Thus, is there much to be gained from powder coating as far as barrel leading is concerned? It does not appear so.

I love the appearance of powder coated bullets and think it is a neat project to undertake. For my purposes, I ain't going that far.

I have just as good of a time casting, sizing (sometimes), and load 'em up.
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thumbs
Starting Member

4 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2017 :  22:13:37  Show Profile Send thumbs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep I hear ya. LOL Tell ya the truth I would rather not pc either. Not that it goes against my craw just a little more time consuming. For some reason, really my lack of know how, I can not get my bullets to shoot without leading. Not normal leading, heavy leading. I cast wheel weights. I have bought bullets from several manufacturers with all kinds for proprietary lubes and they all lead. Some very hard cast still leaded. I asked the manufacturer they have no idea. At least thats what it comes down to. Ok maybe they are all to small for my 1894 bore but none the less they lead. No a problem with my front stuffers using soft lead just in my centerfire rifles, pistols and revolvers with wheel weights.. When I went to powder coating the leading problem went away even in the 1894. I also size its bullets a bit bigger but without pc leading in the Marlin. Powder coating keeps my bore as clean or cleaner than jacketed.
I am looking for a load for the 1894 for hunting. The way I am setup now I am running about 1050fps. I would like to go a bit faster but I'm not sure about the pc. I would probably have to gas check though.
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 29 2017 :  23:16:05  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You don't mention for which caliber "the 1894" is chambered, but I assume it's .30-30. If you can't get a 150gr. polymer-coated cast projectile to shoot to your satisfaction, perhaps opting for a heavier (170gr or more) projectile at a lower velocity will work as well or better. Point of impact and other things will be SLIGHTLY different, but remember that we're talking about a 150 - 175 yard cartridge/rifle combination, under the best of circumstances.

You might inquire of a contributor on here named Onandaga. He has a mechanistically simple if somewhat labor-intensive method of polishing barrels that might fix your leading problem.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2851 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  00:36:39  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going from what I wrote above, what kind of lube are you using??

Most times leading problems are the result of a bullet that is too small. I take it that you haven't slugged your 94s bore. Most times a 0.310 or 0.311 diameter bullet will be very accurate in a 30-30 and with no leading to 2000 fps. Of course most bullets are of wheel weight alloy.

Gas checked is common and there is a place called Sage's Outdoors that specializes in all sorts of checks. The aluminum that you mention are plain base gas checks and are made for bullets that don't have the recess for a regular gas check. They install easily with the size die in the case bullet sizer.

Sage's has made custom size gas checks for me and they are first class.

I really can't offer anything in the line of limits for PC bullets, but I think it would be most important for them to be fitted to your rifle the same as if they were not coated. Generally the rule of thumb is 0.001-0.002" more than bore diameter.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  01:25:30  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
thumbs,

Leading is diagnosable and correctable. leading is from:
1. too small diameter bullets that wobble down the bore.
2. alloy too soft or too hard for the load level.
3. bore finish.

Lever rifles have roomy chambers for chambering necessity and if your cast bullets don't pass an ink test with loaded ammo and don't show your bullets sliding into the chamber. YOUR BULLETS ARE TOO SMALL and have less than full accuracy potential along with elevated leading potential. Ignore bore dimensions. shoot the largest diameter cast bullet that easily chambers. In a 30-30 that could be as large as .314". Mine likes .3125 and I have a wide variety of molds and custom size bullet sizing dies .309-.314.

Bore polishing reduces leading to zero if your bullets fit. If you try my method, make no substitutions and take no shortcuts:
https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/8364-my-bore-polish-method-to-shoot-better/

With bullets that really fit your chamber you won't get leading at any velocity even with only a simple tumble lube, but accuracy usually begins to fall off about 2050 fps in 30-30 with cast. Some are luckier.

Be reasonable, the 30-30 didn't get any accuracy awards with light bullets, the 30-30 likes 170 gr FNGCs. I use the Ranchdog 165 FNGC at 2020 fps with H4895 or AA2230 and easily group under an inch consistently at 50 yards. I cast these in certified #2 Alloy for the load level and prefer this to any bullet whatsoever in 30-30.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Kosh75287
Advanced Member



USA
796 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  02:04:17  Show Profile Send Kosh75287 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure if Onandaga listed the possible causes of leading in order of highest to lowest probability, but it sounds like he might have. It's probably easier to trouble-shoot the first two possible causes than the last one. The last one's not technically difficult, just a heck of a lotta exertion.

God bless Jeff Cooper

Carpe SCOTCH!
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  04:09:39  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
error

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Jul 30 2017 04:13:11
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  04:12:14  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

quote:
Originally posted by Kosh75287

I'm not sure if Onandaga listed the possible causes of leading in order of highest to lowest probability, but it sounds like he might have. It's probably easier to trouble-shoot the first two possible causes than the last one. The last one's not technically difficult, just a heck of a lotta exertion.



Kosh75287,
YES, that is the order as I rate them about leading from highest to lowest. Poor fit is the worst cause of leading.
Most factory rifles are cast bullet friendly, but if their finish is under 400 grit, they are not. My polish method leaves a 500 grit finish that is better for cast bullet use. I always recommend a helper if you are going to use my polishing method even if you are a young strong shooter.

Gary


Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Jul 30 2017 15:58:07
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member



USA
4690 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  17:20:34  Show Profile  Send Hockeynick39 an AOL message Send Hockeynick39 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Been hemming and hawing over this all day. Not currently shooting much these days as it's fairly hot right now and more than likely won't be cooling down for about another month. At least not cool enough to do an good load testing. I just got into powder coating, if you'll look at the cast bullet thread of this forum. I am going to be testing a 172 gr (COWW), plain based, soda can checked, bullet dropped from an Accurate 31-165R mold (almost an exact copy of the Ranch Dog 165). I am going to be testing a ladder of .310 sized, standard lubed bullets against some .308 sized, powder coated bullets soon out of a 1946-48 Winchester 1894 in .30-30 Winchester. This is going to be for accuracy first and then I have to get permission from the range masters to set up a chronograph down range. They generally do not like this, but if it's a slow day, they don't fuss much and usually sit back and watch out of curiosity.

Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .310, 172, Accurate 31-165R
Useable Case Capaci: 35.248 grain H2O = 2.289 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.505 inch = 63.63 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H322

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 73 22.96 1733 1147 23182 4732 89.7 1.569
-18.0 75 23.53 1773 1200 24538 4880 90.8 1.534
-16.0 76 24.11 1812 1254 25972 5025 91.9 1.499
-14.0 78 24.68 1852 1310 27489 5165 92.9 1.465
-12.0 80 25.26 1891 1366 29093 5302 93.8 1.433
-10.0 82 25.83 1931 1423 30788 5434 94.7 1.401
-08.0 84 26.40 1970 1482 32582 5560 95.5 1.370
-06.0 86 26.98 2009 1541 34481 5681 96.2 1.339
-04.0 87 27.55 2048 1602 36491 5797 96.9 1.310 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 89 28.13 2087 1663 38620 5906 97.5 1.279 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 91 28.70 2125 1725 40875 6008 98.1 1.247 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 93 29.27 2164 1788 43266 6104 98.6 1.216 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 95 29.85 2202 1852 45802 6192 99.0 1.187 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 96 30.42 2240 1917 48494 6273 99.3 1.158 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 98 31.00 2278 1982 51353 6347 99.6 1.130 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 100 31.57 2316 2048 54391 6412 99.8 1.103 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 91 28.70 2222 1885 48903 5879 100.0 1.161 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 91 28.70 1996 1522 33666 5827 92.0 1.354

Cartridge : .30-30 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .310, 172, Accurate 31-165R
Useable Case Capaci: 35.248 grain H2O = 2.289 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.505 inch = 63.63 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H322

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 73 23.04 1742 1145 23157 4731 89.5 1.561
-18.0 75 23.62 1782 1198 24514 4880 90.6 1.526
-16.0 77 24.19 1821 1252 25950 5025 91.6 1.491
-14.0 79 24.77 1861 1308 27465 5167 92.7 1.458
-12.0 80 25.34 1901 1364 29073 5304 93.6 1.425
-10.0 82 25.92 1941 1422 30771 5437 94.5 1.393
-08.0 84 26.50 1980 1480 32568 5564 95.3 1.363
-06.0 86 27.07 2020 1540 34471 5686 96.1 1.332
-04.0 88 27.65 2059 1601 36487 5803 96.8 1.304 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 89 28.22 2098 1662 38621 5913 97.4 1.272 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 91 28.80 2137 1725 40883 6016 98.0 1.240 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 93 29.38 2176 1788 43280 6113 98.5 1.210 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 95 29.95 2215 1852 45825 6203 98.9 1.180 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 97 30.53 2253 1917 48528 6285 99.2 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 99 31.10 2291 1982 51396 6359 99.5 1.124 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 100 31.68 2329 2048 54447 6425 99.7 1.097 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 91 28.80 2235 1885 48926 5896 100.0 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 91 28.80 2007 1520 33674 5827 91.8 1.346
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Jul 30 2017 :  20:46:30  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hockeynick39

If everything else is good, then powder selection makes a difference. Varget has a similar soft pressure curve to H4895 and also has the lowest ES of velocity of recommended powders for your weight of cast bullet in 30-30. H322 will get the higher velocity for load density but is a much less recommended powder for cast bullets in 30-30 due to H322 high ES and sharper pressure curve.

Plus .310 is a complete non fit leading mess for a lot of 30-30 rifles and too small. Sizing bullets to a slide fit on chambering gives highest accuracy potential for cast bullets in 30-30. On your bullet the area immediately forward of the crimp groove should show a slide fit with an inked bullet chambering test for fit. Any smaller than a verified in ink slide fit subtracts from accuracy potential of your cast Accurate 31-165R. Less than BHN 15 is also not strong enough for hunting loads in 30-30.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Jul 30 2017 20:56:15
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Hockeynick39
Advanced Member



USA
4690 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2017 :  06:44:31  Show Profile  Send Hockeynick39 an AOL message Send Hockeynick39 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

Hockeynick39

If everything else is good, then powder selection makes a difference. Varget has a similar soft pressure curve to H4895 and also has the lowest ES of velocity of recommended powders for your weight of cast bullet in 30-30. H322 will get the higher velocity for load density but is a much less recommended powder for cast bullets in 30-30 due to H322 high ES and sharper pressure curve.

Plus .310 is a complete non fit leading mess for a lot of 30-30 rifles and too small. Sizing bullets to a slide fit on chambering gives highest accuracy potential for cast bullets in 30-30. On your bullet the area immediately forward of the crimp groove should show a slide fit with an inked bullet chambering test for fit. Any smaller than a verified in ink slide fit subtracts from accuracy potential of your cast Accurate 31-165R. Less than BHN 15 is also not strong enough for hunting loads in 30-30.

Gary



So, what you are saying is that my bore slug of the Winchester 1894 at .3085 and heat treating the bullets until they get to 18 BHN is no good? Also, I understand that H322 is the modern production of Hi-Vel 2 and Ken Waters states that Hi-Vel 2 was very sought after for the .30-30. BTW, it's testing and if it works, I use it, if it doesn't, I move on. I know there is a boat load of data out there on the .30-30 Win. and I'm not out there to change the planet, I just like playing around with different data. It keeps me "busy".
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Jul 31 2017 :  14:46:26  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nick, yes cast bullet fit does not relate to bore measurements. Getting a stable start from a cast bullet in the chamber does matter and chamber slide fit is relative, not bore measurement at all. Bores aren't larger than chambers, it's the other way around. You won't get a stable start from a cast bullet unless it is stabilized by a slide chamber fit from the start. Your bore will size anything you can chamber slide in a cast bullet. The largest bullet that will chamber easily has always been the rule for cast bullet fit, NOT bore measurements. You may be confused and misdirected by recommendations for jacketed bullets and how jacketed bullets should fit the bore. That is not true or relative for cast bullets.

Yes your BHN 18 is too hard for your 30-30 load level and bullets will be shaved and wobble instead of burnished and sliding firmly down the bore by correct fit and hardness of a BHN 15 bullet that slide fits the chamber.

That is great if what you use works well enough for you, but I'd not lie or recommend what you do either. What you have subtracts from accuracy potential. You haven't experienced what your rifle will do with bullets that slide fit your chamber and are the correct hardness for your load level with a soft pressure curve powder that cast bullets like either. You are three steps away from the maximum accuracy potential of your rifle with cast bullets.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Jul 31 2017 15:11:41
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noylj
Advanced Member



USA
553 Posts

Posted - Aug 01 2017 :  16:41:31  Show Profile Send noylj a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I shoot my 11-13 BHN plain cast lead bullets up to around 1600-1800 fps before I go to gas checks (and then I use gas-check bullet designs).
I have been using a tumble lube of LLA since about the time LLA came out. Before that I pan-lubed my pistol bullets and lubed my rifle bullets on a Lubri-Sizer (with a sizing die that was about 0.001" larger than nominal bullet diameter).
Have no idea how the various polymer coatings hold up at high pressure/temperature/velocity, but I would expect them to do quite well.
However, based on my powder coat results to date, they are a hair less accurate than plain lead bullets with LLA or decent lube.

Then said he unto them; But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36

Edited by - noylj on Aug 01 2017 16:42:28
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