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 ? about compressed loads.
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caveman0101
Senior Member



USA
238 Posts

Posted - Sep 17 2017 :  21:54:46  Show Profile Send caveman0101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worked up a book load listed as compressed, it shoots good but I cringe every time I hear the crunch. At what point will compressing a load go boom in the press.

Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
826 Posts

Posted - Sep 17 2017 :  22:44:34  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only black powder might go boom under sever compression.

Smokeless powder can be compressed into dust and will not ignite with out a heat source.

Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4041 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  01:28:00  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zero333

Only black powder might go boom under sever compression.

Smokeless powder can be compressed into dust and will not ignite with out a heat source.



You are correct on the BOOM business but there is another serious concern:
Hodgdon, AA and IMR literature mentions that some of their stick powders are burn rate controlled by extruded stick size and do have a dramatic burn rate change from compression loading and fracturing kernels. Check on the individual powder characteristics with the maker for safety. Hodgden will tell you with a call on a powder of theirs. Generally 3% volume compression is harmless within recommended load data, but those experimenters un-diagnosed with velocity disease may die from gun parts to the brain pan when they keep going up to feed the disease.

Not every stick powder has that problem and it is due to chemistry, but if you can't find out about your specific powder, avoid compression or get better life insurance to accommodate your velocity disease for your families future dietary and housing needs.

The first symptom you would notice if you work loads up with a chronometer is that a charge increase significantly changes your ES of velocity data to a notably bigger number. Keep going up and you will unexpectedly die from gun parts to the brain pan.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Sep 18 2017 01:56:13
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MIKESBARRO
Advanced Member



USA
3180 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  07:13:08  Show Profile Send MIKESBARRO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Onondaga

quote:
Originally posted by Zero333

Only black powder might go boom under sever compression.

Smokeless powder can be compressed into dust and will not ignite with out a heat source.



You are correct on the BOOM business but there is another serious concern:
Hodgdon, AA and IMR literature mentions that some of their stick powders are burn rate controlled by extruded stick size and do have a dramatic burn rate change from compression loading and fracturing kernels. Check on the individual powder characteristics with the maker for safety. Hodgden will tell you with a call on a powder of theirs. Generally 3% volume compression is harmless within recommended load data, but those experimenters un-diagnosed with velocity disease may die from gun parts to the brain pan when they keep going up to feed the disease.

Not every stick powder has that problem and it is due to chemistry, but if you can't find out about your specific powder, avoid compression or get better life insurance to accommodate your velocity disease for your families future dietary and housing needs.

The first symptom you would notice if you work loads up with a chronometer is that a charge increase significantly changes your ES of velocity data to a notably bigger number. Keep going up and you will unexpectedly die from gun parts to the brain pan.

Gary




So why do powder manufacturers list compressed loads in this day of lawyered up reloading manuals???


Mike

Awards are like hemmoroids......if you live long enough, every asshole gets one.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9148 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  09:43:16  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only rifle powder I've ever loaded that I had to compress was 4831. It was common to just scoop and fill the case to the brim and then seat a 130 gr bullet in a .270 Win case. In fact I used a 10" drop tube to get 62 gr of 4831 into a case. You could not get any more powder in there to reach a max load. I heard others doing the same with other calibers and 4831. Lately there have been some slower bulkier powders than 4831 available. I've never had a need to explore them. Faster burning powders than 4831 will reach max pressure before sufficient quantity to be compressed. Handgun powders are a different story. I've never advocated compressing any handgun powder.

Hodgdon then developed 4831SC (short cut) and I've not seen how much I could get in a .270 win case. I should do some new workups to see what a max compressed load would be.

Edited by - Shastaboat on Sep 18 2017 09:45:58
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budlight
Advanced Member



USA
1659 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  10:25:37  Show Profile Send budlight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm a long time compressed load person. So compressed that when I had pulled the bullet out that you can't get the powder out because it becomes one big smashed together chunk

7828 r22 h1000 r25 Retumbo us869

I used to wonder how it burns because it is not rod powder anymore. So it would have an opposite problem compared to breaking the rods into smaller pieces

They always seemed to work fine and follow incremental powder increases
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WonderMan4
Advanced Member

USA
2870 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  13:52:02  Show Profile Send WonderMan4 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have loaded compressed loads since the late 60s and am still breathing and nothing in the brain pan except gray matter. Load manuals are full of compressed loads. What Shasta claims to have done with the 270, I claim to have done with the 30-06.

What budlight claims to get the powder out of a case when disassembling a cartridge, I have used an ice pick to break it up.

As far as handgun load compression, I have done the same with H4227, H110, WW296, Lil'Gun and so on.

If you are uncomfortable with the art, then by all me3ans stay away from it.

CAUTION: there are a few powders available that have strict warnings NOT to compress. I suggest doing your due diligence and homework to find out the particulars.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4041 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  15:31:05  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MIKESBARRO, You said,

"So why do powder manufacturers list compressed loads in this day of lawyered up reloading manuals???"

Powder manufacturers consider that you know the basics of loading and the characteristics of the powder and components you use. Don't expect them to compensate that your brass is not up to spec and has a different powder volume. You are responsible for checking if their data applies to your components, and this is reasonable to their lawyers too. Denying your reasonable responsibility to check what you are doing and how safely you reload is your choice. You are welcome to file suit if you disagree and feel you are owed compensation.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
826 Posts

Posted - Sep 18 2017 :  16:48:58  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that some powders can really spike in pressure under compression. Had it happen with Retumbo. What I thought should of been a safe load was starting to show signs of pressure. That's why we work up and not assume.


Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.
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magman
Junior Member

73 Posts

Posted - Sep 19 2017 :  10:46:40  Show Profile Send magman a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a GOOD READ artical on Gunpowder Compression / Tamping.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/05/phineas_gage_neuroscience_case_true_story_of_famous_frontal_lobe_patient.html
Good Luck To All reloaders! May every one do well!
Cheap, Fast, Good - You only get two of the three!
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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
826 Posts

Posted - Sep 19 2017 :  21:58:46  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by magman

Here is a GOOD READ artical on Gunpowder Compression / Tamping.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/05/phineas_gage_neuroscience_case_true_story_of_famous_frontal_lobe_patient.html
Good Luck To All reloaders! May every one do well!
Cheap, Fast, Good - You only get two of the three!



Thanks magman, that's a very interesting story. Black Powder is dangerous and smokeless powder is almost harmless on it's own.

Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9148 Posts

Posted - Sep 20 2017 :  10:06:35  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Give me a break. 1848 was the year. Probably a hot ember left in the hole. Has nothing to do with compressed loads of smokeless powder. This is the type of BS that anti-gun folks use to justify their beliefs.

Edited by - Shastaboat on Sep 20 2017 10:09:05
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dh2
Advanced Member



781 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2017 :  00:06:18  Show Profile Send dh2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have loaded compressed loads for years and prefer my hunting loads to be compressed so the powder is held against the primer regardless of the angle the rifle is at weather shooting up hill or directly down below my stand. I see no reason why so many are in fear of compressed load of smokeless powder, if there was a liability issue with it no one would publish it
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9148 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2017 :  10:49:08  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although I have compressed 4831 and even 3100 I really prefer not to have to use a 10" drop tube to get powder into a case. Just too slow of a reloading procedure. With 4831SC and other similar powders like H100V which has the same burn rate as 4350 you just don't have to resort to that. Also since primarily using 57mm and shorter cases ie... 7x57, 6.5x55, 8x57, 6mm Rem, .257 Roberts, etc...I just don't find a need to use powders that need to be compressed in weight charges to get optimum performance. I contend that any powder charge that needs to be compressed is not an efficient powder to use in the given case. One exception is using 3100 in 6.5x55 with 140 gr bullets and in that case it doesn't have to be compressed but it does need to be trickled in for consistent weight charges.
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Paul B
Advanced Member

3980 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2017 :  17:40:41  Show Profile Send Paul B a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very few of my loads are compressed. No particular reason other than it just worked out that way. I don't use a drop tube when using ball powders but do use one when using stick powders. Thinking back, about the only powder I did have to compress was for a load for the .270 Win. and IIRC one for the 30-06. Never really saw the need.
Paul B.
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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
826 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2017 :  20:18:53  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I began reloading I did find myself loading compressed loads once in a while, but once I realized compressed loads had no benefits I started shying away from them. And like Shastaboat said... compressed loads take longer to load.

Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.
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