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 458 win mag reduced load
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akalinin
Starting Member

5 Posts

Posted - Sep 12 2005 :  16:47:24  Show Profile Send akalinin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some data on my 458 win mag reduced loads:
IMR 4198 37.2 gr/CCI 250 primer/350gr oregon trail flat nose/458 Lott Ruger No.1 24 inch barrel

Shot| Velocity | Avg Dev
1 | 1494 (H) | 81.3
2 | 1450 | 37.3
3 | 1346 | 66.7
4 | 1423 | 10.3
5 | 1382 | 30.7
6 | 1336 (L) | 76.7
7 | 1455 | 42.3
8 | 1391 | 21.7
9 | 1464 | 51.3
10 | 1386 | 26.7

Avg velocity - 1412.7 FPS
Avg. Deviation 44.5 FPS
Std. deviation 52.6 FPS
Extreme spread = 155 FPS

Do handloads typically vary this much?

The powder only filled about 1/2 the 458 WM case. Should I use a filler of some sort to keep the powder up against the primer?

The load was accurate, but produced more black soot than other loads I have made. Could this signal incomplete combustion?
-Al

6.5mike mike
Senior Member

240 Posts

Posted - Sep 14 2005 :  15:24:53  Show Profile Send 6.5mike mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
akalinin,

I am not a fan of attempts to download major cartridges to significantly lower levels. In my opinion, if you want the effect of reduced loads from the .458 Win. Mag. I suggest that you get a 45-70 Gov't and enjoy loading and shooting this cartridge. It offers all of the advantages of low pressure and low velocities without the dangers of SEE pressure excursions, sooty barrels and aberrations in velocities and pressures.

Now that I have that off my chest, in answer to your questions, yes, you will see that much variation in both pressure and velocities because of the low percentage of case fill that your powder charge yields. It's due to the position of the powder in case and the way in which the primer lights the powder. The sootiness is due to the incomplete low pressure burning of the powder. This doesn't happen when the cartridge is loaded to normal working pressure. Simply, the case is too big to use standard powders and light bullets in reduced loads.

There is a solution but it involves using a non-standard powder with the call out of SR-4759 which is available from IMR which is now owned by Hodgdon.

SR 4759

"This bulky handgun powder works great in the magnums, but really shines as a reduced load propellant for rifle cartridges. It's large grain size gives good loading density for reduced loads, enhancing velocity uniformity." - from the IMR website.

The Speer reloading manuals list loads for a 400 grain FN bullet:

Starting reduced load = 26.0 grains of SR-4759 @ 1262 FPS.

Maximum reduced load = 30.0 grains of SR-4759 @ 1445 FPS.

There aren't any loads listed for the 350 grain FN using this powder.

The only other suggestion would be to use a "youth load" from the Hodgdon website. The jist of this is that if a load is listed for a cartridge/bullet combination using H-4895, you supposedly can reduce that load to 60% and still be safe. I am merely passing this information on for discussion. Go to the Hodgdon website and read the information for yourself.

Best of luck!


Opinions vary...
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akalinin
Starting Member

5 Posts

Posted - Sep 14 2005 :  21:51:56  Show Profile Send akalinin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for your time & information.

This whole low velocity 'research' project of mine was driven by my desire to make cast bullets work well in my 458 WM, while manufacturing a reduced recoil load for practice and large bore metallic silhouette shooting.

I like the 45-70 - and may own one in the future, but you have to 'go to war with the army you've got', and my 'army' is my trusty 458 WM.

Driving cast bullets at jacketed velocities proved to be extremely inaccurate (despite oregon trail's claim that their bullets will stand up to jacketed velocities); hitting anything at 50 yards was next to impossible. These particular bullets also do not posess gas checks. Hence, my inquiry into lower pressure/lower velocity loads.

I have read posts on other boards, accuratereloading.com to name one, speaking of all sorts of voodoo as filler material in large cases; cream of wheat, kapok, dacron and cotton. Cotton looks like the most promising material, but I don't want a snow storm everytime I fire a load. I am going to try it though, until my supply of IMR 4198 is exhausted.

This SR4759 powder sounds interesting. When I make some loads with it, I'll be back with my data.
-Al
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WILLIAMDOERSAM
Moderator



USA
1513 Posts

Posted - Sep 14 2005 :  22:40:17  Show Profile Send WILLIAMDOERSAM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hi al

i've been using 30grs of 2400 lr primer and a 430gr true shot gas check bullet and am really happy with the results. this is down to 45-70 performance and is an excellent whitetail load.

PLEASE EXCUSE THE UPPER CASE TYPING. I AM HANDICAPPED AND CAN ONLY TYPE ONE HANDED. THANK YOU

HAPPY TRAILS
BILL
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Nazgul
Starting Member

5 Posts

Posted - Sep 24 2005 :  22:33:20  Show Profile Send Nazgul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have used the Saeco cast Spire point 405gr bullet with good results. Used IMR4895 with something less than 50gr. Had to use a polyester filler to get proper ignition. Fillers seem to be OK in straight wall cases. It is an accurate light load in my Mod 70.

Edited by - Nazgul on Sep 24 2005 22:35:05
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DrDeath
New Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - Nov 28 2012 :  01:13:19  Show Profile Send DrDeath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found this old thread... And was wondering what the best filler is? Or just use trail boss.??
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swampshooter
Advanced Member

USA
669 Posts

Posted - Nov 29 2012 :  19:35:25  Show Profile Send swampshooter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have received good results just using a tuft of 1/2 grain of Kapok to hold the powder next to the primer. I got enough kapok to last a lifetime from an old life preserver. Roll the kapok up into a little ball and seat it on top of the powder charge using a pencil. It will expand and hold the powder next to the primer. The kapok is totally consumed by the powder charge and even if it wasn't 1/2 grain wouldn't hurt anything.

nra range technical team advisor
nra endowment member
Texas State Hunters Safety Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Pistol Coach
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2032 Posts

Posted - Dec 04 2012 :  19:10:03  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
akalinin: I have been successful with accuracy and low ES with reduced loads in .458 WM. I use a compressible powdered high heat plastic ballistic filler called BPI Original, source:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/695248/bpi-shot-buffer-original-500cc-approximately-1-2-lb

Include the weight of the filler used added to your bullet weight for a total projectile weight in your pressure safety and velocity calculations. But with reduced loads safety is rarely a concern.


Put the filler over the charge to a level of 3/16" to the case mouth rim and then seat bullets compressing the fluffy filler.

The BPI will fill the void between powder and bullet, the slight compression will keep filler and powder from mixing. This particular filler also forms a Quasi gas check that effectively protects the base of plain base cast bullets that are not gas checked and extends the pressure range of plain base bullets significantly without gas checks.

I use the BPI with 2 reduced loads in .458 WM. One uses the 350 gr. RanchDog FNGC bullet at 1700fps with 57.7 grains or H4895. and the other uses the Lee 457-340-RN-F plain base bullet as cast (they drop .459-.460" for me in #2 alloy) and tumble lubed for 1610 fps with 53.3 grains of H4895. Either load groups consistently 1 inch at 50 yards.

1610 fps would be too much without the BPI and the plain bases would gas jet causing significant accuracy loss. The BPI works wonderfully to get the most out of simple plain based bullets in the .458 Win Mag. The filler inherently lowers ES of velocities by effectively holding the powder slightly compressed for even ignition.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Dec 04 2012 19:13:00
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DrDeath
New Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2012 :  08:24:25  Show Profile Send DrDeath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I
Just got about 300 -300g non cast HP bullets. Is trail boss ok with jacketed lt bullets?
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swampshooter
Advanced Member

USA
669 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2012 :  10:45:22  Show Profile Send swampshooter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Trailboss is O.K. with jacketed bullets but don't try to load extremely light or you run the risk of sticking one in your barrel.

nra range technical team advisor
nra endowment member
Texas State Hunters Safety Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Pistol Coach
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swampshooter
Advanced Member

USA
669 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2012 :  10:52:37  Show Profile Send swampshooter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hodgdon has several loads listed on their web-site with Trailboss. Find a bullet weight that is close to the one you're using and go with that data.

nra range technical team advisor
nra endowment member
Texas State Hunters Safety Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Pistol Coach
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member

USA
4773 Posts

Posted - Dec 13 2012 :  11:33:09  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do the same thing as swampshooter with most reduced rifle loads and 1/2 gr. of Kaypoc fiber. Keeps the bore cleaner for me too.
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swampshooter
Advanced Member

USA
669 Posts

Posted - Dec 14 2012 :  14:58:48  Show Profile Send swampshooter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've also noticed a cleaner, more consistant burn with light loads when using the Kapok filler.

nra range technical team advisor
nra endowment member
Texas State Hunters Safety Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Pistol Coach
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BIG R
New Member



USA
28 Posts

Posted - Jan 01 2013 :  09:27:21  Show Profile Send BIG R a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know this might sound odd in a .458 but Hercules Unique with your 350g cast bullet starting with 20g and working up. It is not position sensitive and standard deviation is almost zero plus it burns clean!
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
2032 Posts

Posted - Jan 01 2013 :  13:32:24  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BIG R:

Unique has a very fast burn rate and quickly peaking pressure curve. You can only go so far with it before pressures are beyond reason with mediocre velocity and cast bullets begin to fail from pressure. Medium rifle powders like H4895 are much more effective and efficient in the .458 WM.

It is not just a position sensitivity matter in the .458. You can easily go beyond safe pressures with Unique and get just about nowhere with velocity in the .458 WM.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.
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DrDeath
New Member

USA
21 Posts

Posted - Jan 01 2013 :  15:18:31  Show Profile Send DrDeath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there a powder that is fluffier or fuller then others? One that will
Fill the case without using as much as other powders but still give good velocities...
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