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 308 win vs 308 palma chamber
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coyotesniper
Average Member

USA
111 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2005 :  20:56:32  Show Profile Send coyotesniper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi all I have a question that Im sure you can answer what is the differance in a 308 winchester chamber and the 308 palma chamber?

I went down to the crossroads fell down on my knees asked the lord for mercy save me if you please Eric Clapton

skyline
Advanced Member

Canada
2807 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2005 :  21:19:01  Show Profile Send skyline a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's an interesting question. I thought that the Palma stipulations were for the use of 7.62 Nato or .308 Winchester cases and I believe the 155 grain Sierra bullet. I was unaware that there is actually a Palma chambering different from the stock .308 case.
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coyotesniper
Average Member

USA
111 Posts

Posted - Oct 12 2005 :  22:44:43  Show Profile Send coyotesniper a Private Message  Reply with Quote
thats what I thought but I see things about palma chambers and wondered what it means

I went down to the crossroads fell down on my knees asked the lord for mercy save me if you please Eric Clapton
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FW
Advanced Member

USA
595 Posts

Posted - Oct 13 2005 :  14:23:30  Show Profile Send FW a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Palma rifles are equipped with iron sights, no magnification or scopes unless they are used in the new F-Class. Most rifles are custom built, 12 to 14 lbs, single shot, bolt actions.

In a true international Palma Match, all competitors shoot the .308 Winchester (same as 7.62x51mm NATO) cartridge with the Sierra 155 gr MK HPBT bullet (only bullet allowed).

In many local Palma matches in the US, competitors often use different bullet weights and/or different calibers.
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Paul B
Advanced Member

3268 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2005 :  04:33:56  Show Profile Send Paul B a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the nation that is hosting the match must furnish the rifle and ammuntion. I have the information someplace around here, but it would take some time to dig it up.
Paul B.
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TX Nimrod
Average Member

USA
149 Posts

Posted - Oct 16 2005 :  13:43:16  Show Profile Send TX Nimrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
US Palma Team members have supplied their own rifles and ammo for some years, regardless of location.
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Bart B.
Senior Member

463 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2005 :  21:51:24  Show Profile Send Bart B. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a former US Palma Team member, perhaps I can shed some light on this subject.

About 1980, the host country stopped supplying the rifles. In 1976, the World Palma Championships were held in Camp Perry, Ohio, and Winchester Model 70 Target Rifles were supplied. However, the host country has always supplied the ammo; in 1976 the USA supplied M118 Lake City Match. Some of the lot would be sent to each participating country the year before the match so chambers and barrels could be made to shoot it very accurate. This is because most countries do not allow handloads for highpower competition and arsenal or commercial ammo is used.

A Palma chamber is typically one that has dimensions virtually equal to the USA SAAMI specs except for the leade or throat. Leade diameter is usually .001-inch larger in diameter than the bullet. Some 30 caliber bullets used prior to the 1992 World Championships were as small as .3070-inch and .3065-inch groove diameters were best for accuracy. Since 1992, the International Palma Committee has specificied the Sierra Bullets 155-gr. Palma bullet be the standard and these are sent to the host country for loading. Length of the chamber leade or throat is usually short enough to allow about .010-inch setback of the bullet when chambered. It's interesting that 4-groove barrels shoot these bullets more accurate than a 6-groove one.

In Palma matches in the USA, Sierra's Palma bullet must often be used, but it can be handloaded. Other bullets and weights are sometimes allowed in local Palma matches.
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TX Nimrod
Average Member

USA
149 Posts

Posted - Oct 17 2005 :  22:00:02  Show Profile Send TX Nimrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shoulda stopped when I was ahead with just the rifles....thanks Bart.
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FW
Advanced Member

USA
595 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2005 :  07:42:24  Show Profile Send FW a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What ever happened with the Ruger Palma Rifle? I can't imagine why it wasn't a success slow lock time and an action that isn't very stiff.
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Bart B.
Senior Member

463 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2005 :  09:02:32  Show Profile Send Bart B. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding Ruger's Palma rifles....

In 1990, two firearms companies contacted the US Palma Team Coach and offered to make 20 Palma rifles for the 16-person team. Here's what happened.

Remington was first offering their 40X target rifle in .308 Win. But the coach said no, thanks. He (as well as other knowledgable highpower competitors) knew that that round receiver was notorious for working loose in a few hundred shots from epoxy bedding due to barrel torque. And its extractor was not all that reliable. Plus the Remington trigger wasn't too repeatable. And finally their barrel quality wasn't all that great and the 1:10 twist they used was way too fast for 150-gr. bullets.

Along came Ruger; they offered to build 20 rifles. The coach said to go ahead and the team would test them. Ruger had no idea what a Palma rifle was. They called around and asked people they thought were experts what should be done. Nobody at Ruger knew what a Palma barrel had to do so they guessed. Nobody at Ruger knew what a good barrel had to be made like to shoot no worse than 3/4th MOA at 1000 yards. A black powder barrel maker, Green Mountain, was contracted to make barrels. Ruger had no idea that the best barrels for Palma rifles were then made by Border, Obermeyer or Kreiger and that's what the team members had on their own rifles. Two barrel types were made by Green Mountain; some with 6 grooves and others with 4.

Ruger modified their Model 77 receiver such that the front stock screw was vertical (not angled) and welded in a loading platform for single-shot operation. They designed a new trigger, too. A new stock style was made with a height adjustable cheekpiece. The stocks were all the same length of pull without any adjustment for different sizes of shooters. And the pistol grip wasn't all that good for proper trigger control.

These rifles were given to the US Palma Team mid-summer of 1991 and were tested by the 16-person US Palma Team. Out of 20 Ruger rifles, one shot fair, one was average and the rest horrible. Triggers were not very repeatable. None of the 6-groove barrels shot well. And the fixed length of pull didn't fit half the team members very well at all. I checked out the triggers on three of them and they were pretty bad. People noticed how rough the bores were when they cleaned them.

So at the 1992 World Championships, 15 team members shot their own rifles and 1 shot the best Ruger rifle because his own rifle went sour.

These rifles may still be in a vault at the NRA Whittington Center at Raton, New Mexico.
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FW
Advanced Member

USA
595 Posts

Posted - Oct 18 2005 :  14:58:21  Show Profile Send FW a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What an answer, more than I expected. Thanks!
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