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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member
USA
2308 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 17:01:11
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| Can anyone tell me about paper patch bullets? What is the advantage of a PP bullet over a regular bullet with grease grooves? I am a little ignorant for sure about this. Thanks. Mike |
Edited by - Ds28 on Jan 09 2009 11:51:59 |
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BISCUT
Moderator
2662 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 18:05:50
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Mike,
You just opened the front dooe to the RELOADER's NEST school --
SUBJECT: PAPERPATCH BULLETS 101, 201, 301, AND ADVANCED REGENTS
TEACHER: WOLFGANG
SCHOOL'S IN BOYS! 
I was wondering about these as well for the 450Marlin. Can't wait for the answers.
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Edited by - BISCUT on Jan 08 2009 18:06:39 |
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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member
USA
2308 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 19:12:56
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| That's great! I look forward to hearing from the "Master"! :) |
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IraqVet2003
Advanced Member
USA
1251 Posts |
Posted - Jan 08 2009 : 19:16:12
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| So Wolfgang whats the scoop? |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2009 : 08:10:02
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Y'all gotta learn to put these questions where I can find 'em quicker. Nonetheless.....
Cut, Wet, Stretch, Wrap, Dry, Load & Shoot. What's the problem? 
Mike,
While the above tagline is delivered as just a smart @$$ comment, PP has been around almost as long as guns have but in the late 18th century, PP began to take on a new roll with the increasingly common use of paper cartridges. When conical bullets became more widely known and used, again PP was at the forefront of technology yet its basic function remained the same. Further along in time, the late ML period into BPCR days brought PP conicals into mainstream use as can be found in the government contract .45-70-500PP loads. (That's just a brief, one of these days I'll get around to finishing my feature-length article)
PP has two primary functions:
1- Prevent blow-by.
2- Isolate the lead bullet from the barrel.
In essence, the PP works in much the same manner as a metal jacket or a cloth patch on a round ball. What we must keep in mind is that the lead normally used for ball & bullet was "almost pure" lead (unless you pay through the nose for scientific pure lead, there is a certain amount of alloying elements contained within what we accept as "pure" lead but nonetheless, the hardness remains around 5 Bhn (Brinell hardness scale). To give a comparison, standard clip-on wheel weights (WW) drop as-cast around 12 Bhn.
The lower the hardness, the easier it is for the bullet to be deformed which is a good thing for producing better terminal results on smaller size game but a bad thing when trying to run it down a rifled bore at 1300+ fps. Next consider that the bore quality of the day was not as good as can be obtained with a match-grade barrel of today - there was then, as there is now in common mass-production barrels of today, a certain amount of tolerance as in tight/loose spots within the bore. The PP, just as the modern copper jacket, acts as a buffer to help counter the affects of mfg tolerances.
Any bullet can be PP'ed but most commonly associated with PP'ing are the "straight-side" (no lube grooves) that are at or under the bore diameter not the "groove diameter". Example: .45-70 bore diameter 0.450" common modern groove diameter 0.458" thus 0.004" deep rifling grooves. In older bbls and bbls made for shooting soft-cast bullets, the groove diameter and/or bore diameter may be adjusted accordingly to provide for deeper grooves. In common cartridge gun, the bore diameter is reduced so as to maintain the SAAMI chamber and groove diameter spec's - thus, a .45-70 bore made for a reproduction BPCR rifle may now have a 0.446" bore diameter but maintain the 0.458" groove diameter as per SAAMI spec's yet provide the user with rifling grooves that are 0.006" deep ... and let me tell ya, the additional 0.002" groove depth on the rifling can be the difference as night is to day when it comes to accuracy. The diameter of the cast/swaged bullet varies by the preference of both the user and the rifle. Some folks/rifles prefer running a bullet that is at bore diameter, others like a bullet that is under bore diameter while others will run a bullet slightly over the bore diameter.
Bullets with grease grooves can be PP'ed as well, normally the grooves are not filled with lube as it prevents the patch from being properly glued to the bullet. In some instances, it is possible to apply a small amount of lube to saturate the patch without causing an adhesion issue after the patch has fully cured. Most common glue is egg-white & water (real farm eggs from egg laying critters that are not pumped full of chemicals and drugs work best and eggs from ducks/geese are better yet) The patch is pre-cut for size & shape, wetted in the adhesive then wrapped around the bullet stretching the patch as desired for proper wrap & finished thickness. The paper is normally at least 25% cotton fiber, the higher the cotton content, the better the patch.
Patch is normally cut in a parallelogram shape when doing a normal bearing surface only wrap, other shapes are use for creating differ wraps where the top and/or bottom of the patch may be made slightly smaller or stepped-down to allow for extending the patch above and/or below the bearing surface. Round balls are sometimes wrapped with a special interlocking or overlapping relief cut pattern similar to a star while some use just a common circle cut.
Contrary to popular belief, you can in fact run PP bullets on smokeless powder, it is not just a black powder thing. Most of the common cast bullet molds are made too-small in that the bullets drop at or slightly under bore diameter and then you have the misinformed who think they must destroy a good casting by running it through a sizer die with a press that pushes on the nose of the bullet!
Properly done, the bullets should cast to the final diameter right from the mold and/or following heat-treatment if the process is used. Sizing processes should be a last resort for cartridge loaded bullets. PP can be used to bring an under-size as-cast bullet up to the desired diameter. Lube can be in the form of a "grease cookie" loaded under the bullet (yes, the round with the grease cookie provides the lube for the next round, not the one it's loaded in).
Hope this gives you a good over-view. PP can be extremely beneficial and while it sounds complicated, with just a little practice and the right materials, you'll see how easy it really is. |
 Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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IraqVet2003
Advanced Member
USA
1251 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2009 : 08:33:38
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| Wolf gang wso which is better PPB or a wad (fiber disc) to cut down on leading? For instance I have posted before about loading lead for my 40 S&W which are .401 LSWC and to keep leading down I have to keep them below 950 FPS. Thing is the bores of my guns have been lapped and are very smooth and the bullets seem to have enough lube and are 18BNh, so in theroy they should be able to shoot faster and still get very little leading. But that doesnt seem to be the case for me. Thanks in advance for any help. |
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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member
USA
2308 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2009 : 09:25:22
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| Wolf, Many thanks! I have ordered new, formed 40-90 brass from Buffalo. A friend heavy into BPCR has a bunch of moulds and is making me some bullets. He told me the BN cases are not very accurate so I am hoping for the best. A friend told me many of the old ones used paper patched so that's what brought the question up. I am going to see if I can find some bullets of the correct diameter to try. I see Buffalo has moulds and I may have to buy a special mould. I sure appreciate you taking time to answer the question so well and to explain the process. It would appear that PP may be something that I need to try. Thanks again, Mike |
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BISCUT
Moderator
2662 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2009 : 12:54:16
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Wolf: You just opened a whole new world for me. Someday I hope to give these guys a try in my 450Marlin and 45/70.
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2009 : 15:56:58
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All:
My reply above barely scratches the surface, that's like the cliff notes for the cliff notes - thing is, it just takes a whole lot more time to explain the how & why than it does to make it happen.
Iraqvet:
You more than likely have a bullet sizing problem combined with them being too-hard. This "hard-cast" thing is in the same catagory as those who will try to claim that a 2.25oz MAGNUM shotload will outperform a 1oz load from the same 12ga. If your bullets are not 0.001-0.003" larger than the groove diameter, the lead is coming from blow-by. Bullets that are too-hard need a helluva kick in the ass to get them to obtrude - if you start with too-small bullet that's too hard it can't obtrude to seal the bore and the gas blowing by the bullet cuts the lead depositing the droplets of lead onto the bore. The throat can be an issue as well, sometimes the throats are just a hair small which swages the bullets down before they go into bore and thus the blow-by issue again. Assuming you're running these in an auto-pistol, the barrel isn't long enough to worry much about lube failure so I'll ignore that issue for the time being but it is possible if the lube really sucks. One more thing that is often overlooked is the very real possibility that your seating die is not pushing the bullets straight into the case. I had this issue more times than I can remember, one that sticks in my mind is a .44mag die that caused the jacketed bullets to keyhole at 25yds yet there was no obvious sign of the problem with the loaded round. Yep, it was just a matter of making the top punch fit the bullets and problem solved but it took a few days of scratching my head to figure that one out - thus is the reason why I will not deal with a sizing press that pushes bullets from the nose because it normally creates additional problems. Start a new thread or email me with more details and we'll see if we can't get this figured out without you having to beat your head off the wall. BTW, have you slugged the bore to measure the actual groove diameter?
Ethmoid,
Whoever told you BN cases aren't accurate needs to meet the 11.15x60R (.43 Mauser) I used to have because even though the rifle wasn't high-quality, she'd still print 385gr bullets into 4.5" @ 300yds. If everything is right, or at least as right as you can get it, it don't mean a hill of beans if the cartridge is BN or straight-wall.
Biscut,
Your wife is going to hate me, I can feel it coming! LOL |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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Edited by - Wolfgang on Jan 10 2009 04:51:55 |
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WILLIAMDOERSAM
Moderator
USA
1460 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2009 : 18:13:36
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Mike
I just read an article on Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette shooting that had high praise for the BN cartridges especially the 40 cal.
It is one of their "darling" cartridges in that type shooting events. Don't sell it short.
Best wishes, Bill
P.S. Wolfie
An excellent dissertation by the maestro.
Bill |
Edited by - WILLIAMDOERSAM on Jan 09 2009 18:17:01 |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2009 : 07:14:28
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Some of the most popular American market BN BP cartridges are:
.25-20 Stevens (a/k/a: .25-20 Single Shot)
.32-40 Ballard (Winchester)
.38-72 Winchester
.40-60 Marlin/Winchester
.40-65 Winchester
.40-90 Sharps BN
.44-40 Winchester
Less common but still used:
.38-56 Winchester
.38-70 Winchester
.40-50 Sharps
.40-70 Winchester
.40-82 Winchester
.44-77 Sharps BN
.44-90 Sharps BN
.45-60 Winchester
.45-75 Winchester
.50-95 Winchester
.56-50 Spencer
.577 Snider
Numerous other foreign/semi-foreign BN BP cartridges also remain in use as well as many cross-over cartridges which are those that may have been invented for use with smokeless/semi-smokeless powder but were subsequently reloaded with black powder because the user's didn't have access to or couldn't afford the smokeless components. A big favorite of mine that falls in the latter catagory is the 9.3x74R and a favorite of others is the 11x52R M71/78 (a/k/a: 43 Dutch Beaumont)
Key thing to keep in mind when loading any BN cartridge with BP is to avoid the use of grease cookies/wads unless you know with absolute certainty that they cannot get below the neck or you'll run the risk of blowing the gun up in your face. With BN cartridges, it is always best to use a bullet that carries a sufficient volume of grease in the grooves or swab between shots. |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member
USA
2308 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2009 : 11:06:18
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| Thanks Wolf and Bill! I should have 100 formed brass next week. A friend with a bunch of moulds is casting me some bullets and I hope to be shooting by next weekend. I am hoping things go well. The bullets are grease groove bullets with SPG lube. If this old thing will shoot, I hope to try it out some some wild hogs. Thanks again! Mike |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2009 : 22:48:41
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| The .40-90 will do well on hogs with a not-too-hard FN or soft-cast RN especially if you're going with a bullet that isn't too-light, 365-400 grains is a good range to stay in. That was the biggest gripe I had with the .375win, bullets were too-light because of the lack of clearance in the Win94 action and it was impossible to get the velocity of the 200gr jacketed bullets high enough to get decent expansion. Yep, it killed hogs but didn't do as good as the .30-30 w/ a 170gr cast FN. The .40-90 will work wonders with the right bullets, if you've got enough mass, you can break both shoulders w/o wiping out all the meat too, all depends on the bullets and how hard/soft they are. |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member
USA
2308 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 10:52:44
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| Mark, I may be wrong but believe my friend said these would be 1 to 20 tin to lead ratio. They will be grease-groove bullets as he doesn't ever use paper-patched. I think that lead-tin ratio is what the competition guys use but I am not sure. He said we would use Swiss powder and not GOEX but I don't know the granualtion. I believe Federal 215M is the preferred primer. I don't know what is wrong with GOEX but know he's tested a bunch of loads and prefers Swiss. Another friend with a 45-110 uses paper-patched so I am hot to try making some PP bullets and testing them. Thanks, Mike |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2009 : 20:51:40
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Mike,
Many BPCR shooters prefer to run Swiss as it is the gold standard of current production powders but of course it comes with the price tag to match. Po folks like me take a step down and run Schuetzen brand which is also Graf's brand, same powder different bottle. I used Goex for years, there wasn't anything else available, but, I had some "issues" with two of their distributors. After I wasted two hours driving 65 miles to buy a case of Goex only to have the distributor tell me they were not going to give me a "case discount" and I would have to pay the $38 shipping plus $20 haz-mat fee even though I was picking it up in person!!! I told them to shove it, drove back home, called Goex and told them to shove it and followed up with a snail-mail letter that never got a reply! I called Graf's, found out I had a 10% off coupon, ordered a case of Graf's brand (Schuetzen) and had it delivered to my door four days later without any hassle. I tried it and I prefer the Schuetzen powder, much cleaner burning and the lot to lot consistency is fantastic - no more rebuilding loads every time the lot is changed! Since Hodgdon recently purchased Goex, hopefully the consistency will improve and the fouling will be reduced.
2F usually works better in the larger cases, the amount of compression will depend on what the rifle wants. If you have problems getting decent accuracy or you see a lot of deviation on the chrony, try using an over-primer wad cut from black & white newsprint, it buffers the primer flash, BP doesn't need much to get it going and too-much primer causes the bullet to jump from the case and dislodges the powder column causing erratic performance. Speaking of which, IIRC, the "M" denotes "magnum" primer, I never use them, only standard primers. I haven't bought any primers in a long time but I think Magtech was making, or was about to make, reduced charge primers specifically for BP cartridge loads...may have been Ely? Sorry, can't remember.
The alloy that will work best for you is also going to be dictated by the load & rifle combo. 1:20 is a good middle of the road starting point to see what happens, people shoot everything from 1:5 to 1:40 Pb/Sn alloy, some use straight WW alloy, others like myself use mixes from 10:1 to 10:5 pure Pb/WW alloy (normally I start with 10:2 and go up or down as needed, the alloying elements in the WW's make for easier casting and more consistent castings. Grease groove bullets will often work quite well if they're sized properly and you don't bugger them during loading ... of course the same can be said for any bullet.
Just in case I didn't make it perfectly clear before NEVER EVER LEAVE ANY AIR SPACE IN A BLACK POWDER LOAD!!!!! Make absolutely sure the powder is in contact with the base of the bullet - if an under-bullet wad and/or grease cookie is used, all components must be in positive contact with the powder at all times - thus, the wad goes in the case first and is seated firmly on the powder, then the grease cookie then the bullet is seated so it is in firm contact with the cookie, the cookie is in firm contact with the wad and the wad is in firm contact with the powder.
I'll be awaiting the performance report! |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member
USA
2308 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2009 : 09:14:08
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Mark,
I have about a dozen cans of GOEX 2F so may try it to see if I can use it up. It is a few years old but has never been opened. My brother gave me a bunch years ago. I will let you know the results as soon as I get to shoot a group. My eyes are no longer as sharp as they used to be but sometimes witrh the light right and a high contrast target, I can do ok. Many thanks,
Mike |
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Paper Patch Bullets
