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coues24a
Average Member

USA
105 Posts

Posted - Jan 14 2009 :  23:48:13  Show Profile Send coues24a a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking of trying some of the all copper bullets, Berger, GMX, E-Tip and Barnes. Does going to all copper help with the BC and SD? I noticed Federal came out with some super high velocity loads. I'm thinking of either 155, 165 or 168 gr. for my 300 WSM and 120 or 140 gr. for my 7mm Remy. What doe you guys think?

B.L.E.
Starting Member

9 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  00:16:40  Show Profile Send B.L.E. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Copper is less dense than lead so a 165 grain all copper bullet is going to be longer than a lead core bullet of the same weight. Because the bullet is longer, it may need a faster rate of rifling twist than a lead bullet of the same weight.
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elkaholic24
Average Member



USA
157 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  01:51:26  Show Profile Send elkaholic24 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Barnes. I love them. Deadly and accurate.
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Andy Jaeger
Junior Member

73 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  02:16:12  Show Profile Send Andy Jaeger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just picked up some of the 180 grain hollow points for my 300 wsm. I haven't loaded them yet but I am kind of curious how they will seat. They do seem a little long. I have been getting really good reports on their effectivness on game.
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Ridgerunner665
Average Member

86 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  02:44:33  Show Profile Send Ridgerunner665 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The BC's on the Barnes bullets are a bit lower than traditional bullets, but since the SD is still up there, you can use a lighter bullet and still get the same end result because of higher velocity. The Barnes MRX has a good BC, but its not a solid copper bullet.
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BISCUT
Moderator



3516 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  06:34:33  Show Profile Send BISCUT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some cartridges may have OAL issues with the heavy bullets. I tried the 350gr TSX in 450MARLIN only to find out the 350gr is way to long of an ogive to seat in the 450 or 45/70 lever guns but makes it into a 458MAG bolt action.

300gr TSX has a different ogive design (more of a HP than a spitzer) and those work
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ranger335v
Advanced Member

1633 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  11:17:04  Show Profile Send ranger335v a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Does going to all copper help with the BC and SD?"

If by SD you mean sectional density, instead of standard deviation, NO.

Sec. Den. is a simple ratio of diameter vx. weight. All bullets of a given diameter and weight have the same Sec. Den., regardless of material, nose shape or anything else. Actually, it has become an obsolete term for any indication of potential bullet performance, IMHO.

- Common sense is an uncommon quality -
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hwy40
Advanced Member



USA
552 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  11:20:26  Show Profile Send hwy40 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The problem that you encounter with the all copper bullets is that with the lower density you get a longer bullet in any given weight. With a longer bullet the bearing surface that contacts the bore is longer and therefore adds friction. That is the primary problem that I am dealing with in loading for the .264 WIn mag. 140 gr bullets have too much bearing surface which pushes pressure up before velocity is achieved. The only other thing to watch out for is the extermely long bullet with the high B.C. As stated before in this thread, sometimes they don't fit in the magazine.

If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is.
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skyline
Advanced Member

Canada
2807 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  11:39:44  Show Profile Send skyline a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is why they have all gone to using the bands, which reduces the bearing surface.

Let no good deed go unpunished.
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Galen
Average Member

144 Posts

Posted - Jan 15 2009 :  12:18:46  Show Profile Send Galen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you cut a band in a lead jacketed bullet would it do the same thing that Barnes band does?
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Vagabond
Starting Member



2 Posts

Posted - Jan 25 2009 :  20:29:13  Show Profile Send Vagabond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My experience with the TSX 168gr in my 308 and 300RUM is higher velocities with the same charge vs conventional bullets (eg Gameking 165). Barrel fouling seems to be less than the GK as well, but no real measurement. I talked to Tim, a Ballistics guy from Barnes, at the SHOT Show in Orlando just recently, and he suggested that the driving bands not only addressed the pressure spike and fouling that used to haunt monometal bullets, but makes them a little faster as well. I pushed 165GR GameKing BTHP with 85 gr H4831SC and it is slower than 83.5 gr of the same pushing a TSX 168gr BTHP - just a bit over 20fps average by my chrony (300RUM "start loads")and all else the same. I have not tried a max load and probably won't.

The length difference isn't as simple as "lead versus copper" because the workability of the copper allows smaller cavities coupled with the "softer than gilding metal" petals to give equal expansion. But the TSX is longer.

As for the stability, both these guns have 1:10 barrels, for using heavier (longer) conventional bullets, so the longer TSX in 168 was not an issue. Fits the Mag as well. You should consider the load as a total, though. Perhaps a step down in weight and a step up in speed would be the answer. The durability of the TSX at high speed means you don't have to put in a heavy slug going slower to get penetration. It will stay together at higher impact velocities than cored bullets can stand (even "bonded" cores are no match)and penetrate deeper because it retains almost all it's weight. Flatter shooting higher speeds mean Max PBR is extended, simplifying aiming. Real world reports from Africa tout .308 Win taking Kudu at 140 yards "through both shoulders and out" and similar feats by 165/168 bullets: "Leave the magnum at home for plains game." I'm still gonna use mine, but I'll load it lighter.

As for driving bands in lead, I would think it'd do the same as long as the pressure didn't leak, so maybe with a gas check like we used in the .357Mag? Perhaps the lead would tear out at the bands if it were too soft. In fact doesn't a lube groove in lead act the same way? Interesting thought though.

I just realized I'm sold on the TSX, pass the Kool Aid, I need a refill!

I spent most of my money on ammo and shooting, the rest I just wasted.
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skyline
Advanced Member

Canada
2807 Posts

Posted - Jan 25 2009 :  20:41:41  Show Profile Send skyline a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is one thing that has been said before about the 'copper' bullets............because they are longer for weight than conventional lead core bullets you can step down one notch in weight. If you are normally shooting 180 grain bullets in your rifle then you can step down to the 165's.......and as a side benefit you get the increase in velocity.

Let no good deed go unpunished.
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newguy220
Senior Member



USA
487 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2009 :  00:32:15  Show Profile Send newguy220 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by skyline

That is one thing that has been said before about the 'copper' bullets............because they are longer for weight than conventional lead core bullets you can step down one notch in weight. If you are normally shooting 180 grain bullets in your rifle then you can step down to the 165's.......and as a side benefit you get the increase in velocity.



If I read this correctly 30cal 165gr all copper bullet will work like a 180gr lead bullet?

newguy220
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crs
New Member

USA
10 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2009 :  11:35:04  Show Profile  Visit crs's Homepage Send crs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may want to check the North Fork bullets also. They have softpoints and solids for all popular calibers. They are very accurate in my .405 WCF and .45-90.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/

and an article on Real Guns comparing premium bullet performance:
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar171.htm

CRS, NRA Patron Member, Whittington Center, TSRA, DWWC
Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/
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Evad
Advanced Member



USA
1346 Posts

Posted - Jul 03 2009 :  18:57:08  Show Profile Send Evad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The GMX bullets are all guilding materal, not all copper.
Dave

I never met a gun I didn't like.
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newguy220
Senior Member



USA
487 Posts

Posted - Jul 04 2009 :  15:28:22  Show Profile Send newguy220 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
CRS, the North Fork Bullets look just like the Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, another bullet I would like to try, but don't have the money for.
My question still didn't get answered though, from everyones experince shooting these copper bullets. I was wanting to if it true what skyline had to say about copper bullets because I have no experience myself with them.

newguy220
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