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 30-06 Akley Improved/270 Ackley Improved
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BISCUT
Moderator



3497 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  10:47:29  Show Profile Send BISCUT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good morning to all. I was wondering who has either of these chamberings and how do you like them? Worth the extra scratch? Brass issues?

ethmoid1999
Advanced Member



USA
3633 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  11:37:02  Show Profile Send ethmoid1999 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had a friend with a 30-06 AI. It would almost match 300 H&H velocities. It was an effecient cartridge. I think the guy fired regular factory ammo which fireformed to fit the chamber and then handloaded with the RCBS AI dies. It was an ok cartridge but the guy took a beating when he traded. It seems it sure reduces resale or trade in value to change to the AI. They just use a finishing reamer on the original -06 chamber to improve it. The best of the bunch appears to be the 280 AI. If I was rebarreling, I would consider that.
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west
Average Member



135 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  11:46:38  Show Profile Send west a Private Message  Reply with Quote
my father in law is a 30-06 fanatic. The only gun he shoots more then his plethora of 06's is his 06 ackley. He fireforms 30-06 brass. The converstion can not be simpler. I think a lot of guys are standoffish of having to do anything other then just pic the brass up at the store. i would think that would hurt resale value. The nice thing about the 30-06ai is finding brass is as easy as finding 30-06brass.

"blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'donnell being fat"
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BISCUT
Moderator



3497 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  12:15:49  Show Profile Send BISCUT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When fire forming the brass would the rifle still shoot accurately or is it all over the place? Is it like wasting 20 new standard 30-06 rounds to get 20 pieces of brass to fit a Ackley chamber?

Will using a full lenght size die in AI on standard brass work? If not why? Is it to much of a change to complete with just a FL die?

Lot's of questions I know
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ethmoid1999
Advanced Member



USA
3633 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  13:46:13  Show Profile Send ethmoid1999 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The rifle shot ok witth the original 06 loads. Velocity was off a bit as some pressure is expended fireforming the AI case.
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jag
New Member

39 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  14:03:31  Show Profile Send jag a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Biscut,
I don,t know about the .270, but do have a .06ai and really enjoy it.As I only load for 6-7cartridges I's not a problem to do the process of forming brass.I start by sizing only about half the neck of a .06 brass then use a heavey bullet 180gr.or more and the light load in the manual, I seat the bullet way long and run the cart. in to the chamber so it hits the lands and fire to form. I retire my brass after 12 firings and have never lost one.As for accuracy while forming mine shoots high and left, but comes back to zero with formed brass.Some hassel but ok for me.Hope this answers some of your questions
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BISCUT
Moderator



3497 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  14:40:44  Show Profile Send BISCUT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
jag, yes it does answer some of my questions. especially since you own and use one. I'm seriosly considering getting one rechambered in AI.
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coyoteklr
Advanced Member



USA
802 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  16:17:49  Show Profile Send coyoteklr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have a 270 AI with 26" lilja barrel ... it is such a really good shooter even with factory ammo.... I shoot tsx 130 gr. and it is a tack driver. Last fall dropped an elk right where it stood... shot placement is #1....

The first taste of Texas still lingers in my heart and on my tongue.

FASTER HORSES

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WILLIAMDOERSAM
Moderator



USA
1513 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  16:25:32  Show Profile Send WILLIAMDOERSAM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BISCUT

Ackley in his own tome said the 270 AI offered little in performance and did not recommend it. Enough said.

On to the '06. You can perfect fireforming loads for accuracy and get great results. B U T, the same combination of components in the Improved version will not be as accurate.

I have Ackley Improveds in 22-250,one in standard twist and the other a fast twist for up to 80 gr Bullets. In 223AI I have a Savage Model 10 switch barrel that also can shoot 19-223, which is a 19 caliber on the AI 223 case. Also have a 243AI and a 6,5x68s AI.

I also have a 7MM, TCU, T/C 14 " barrel that I used when I shot silhouettes. I was bored one day in the shop and cleaned out the chamber with a 7BR reamer. The dimensions are half way between a 7BR and a 7-08.

I called it the 7mm Long Dong just for kicks, my gunsmith nearly laughed his but off, until he shot it. It's real name is the 7mm BRLD, thats 7mm Bench Rest Lengthened Dimensionally. I wanted something with a little more power for long range Deer. It fulfilled my hopes.

Back to the '06. Once you get your fireformed brass properly prepared then go to work on your accuracy loads. You won't "need" a lot of brass for hunting purposes, UNLESS you are like me and decide to use it for long range Wood Chucking, 'Yotes and such. But you wouldn't do that would ya?

All my Improved Brass is done the same way. I just go out and sit at the bench where there is a target rich environment and fire away. Shoot a few in one rifle and let 'er cool and use another rifle while that one cools.

I once went to the range for a shooting session and spent three days there. I have an advantage though, I have a Pick Up with an overhead camper, a portable power unit, water supply and full kitchen amenities.

I also am widowed and have no other responsibilities. HE, HE, HE, for the first time in my last 50 years all I have to think about is ME

Actually it sucks, I'm used to having a houseful of kids to ramrod. They sure keep ya young. Always something going on.

One evening at the diner table we were discussing who had to do what, when, where and why for the next day and I made the comment, "you kids are driving me crazy" and one of the little smarty pants said, "Dad, thats no drive, it's a short walk". 3 Dove under the table and the other two sat there snickering.

What the hell else could I do after analyzing the situation. I laughed my buns off.

Still haven't figured out who said that and they ain't talking.

By the Ackley Improving a rifle is just straighting the case walls out and adding the 35 or 40° shoulder. Ackley never seen half the AI cartridges.

One of the Main reasons I Ackley Improve is for brass life. Usually accuracy is very good also.

Back to the '06 AGAIN, I think you will like it. Good cartridge.

One other point, if your smith does his job correctly you don't have to jam the bullet into the rifling to properly fireform. All you have to do is fire factory ammo in it.

I'm done. I got way too long winded. Sorry.

Best wishes, Bill

Edited by - WILLIAMDOERSAM on Feb 18 2009 16:35:59
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450Dakota
Junior Member

73 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  19:44:48  Show Profile Send 450Dakota a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have a 375 AI and an 8MM Mag improved. I start off to the range with 10 rounds and fire form them and get the scope on paper. Next I load the 10 improved rounds and take another 5-10 rounds that need fire formed to the improved version. I shoot the first 10 for load development and then fire form the remaining ones letting the barrel cool as necessary. Every time I take the rifle out I take 5-10 rounds to improve and before long you have plenty of improved brass. If it is a rifle that likes a fouled bore, I load with the same bullet as my accuracy loads and fire form with the fouling shot. I shoot a lot of Barnes bullets but I do my fire forming with Hornady or Sierra, whatever is cheaper. I also use up powders that are getting low or didn't work for a load as long as they are compatible with the caliber. For the extra I gain it is worth it to me.
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BISCUT
Moderator



3497 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  20:00:29  Show Profile Send BISCUT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BILLY:

Back to the '06. Once you get your fireformed brass properly prepared then go to work on your accuracy loads. You won't "need" a lot of brass for hunting purposes, UNLESS you are like me and decide to use it for long range Wood Chucking, 'Yotes and such. But you wouldn't do that would ya?

I wouldn't be afraid to use it I like to shoot If I do it it would most likely be 30-06. I guess the main question is is it worth it for a 100fps or so gain? In 30-06 (so far) I'm really interested in 180gr and 200gr and sometimes a 168gr. Mostly I like the 180gr in 30-06 and 168 in 308, but the Barnes TSX is an exception for the 30-06.

Thanks for everyone's input.

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west
Average Member



135 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  20:20:04  Show Profile Send west a Private Message  Reply with Quote
my Father in law fire forms his rounds by taking primed 30-06 brass. uses 10 gr of powder shoves cleanex on top of the powder fills up to the neck with cream of wheat puts cleanex on top of that and a touch of elmers glue to hold it together. points down range and fires Never done it myself.

"blaming guns for violence is like blaming spoons for Rosie O'donnell being fat"
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WILLIAMDOERSAM
Moderator



USA
1513 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  20:45:45  Show Profile Send WILLIAMDOERSAM a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BISCUT

BILLY:

Back to the '06. Once you get your fireformed brass properly prepared then go to work on your accuracy loads. You won't "need" a lot of brass for hunting purposes, UNLESS you are like me and decide to use it for long range Wood Chucking, 'Yotes and such. But you wouldn't do that would ya?

I wouldn't be afraid to use it I like to shoot If I do it it would most likely be 30-06. I guess the main question is is it worth it for a 100fps or so gain? In 30-06 (so far) I'm really interested in 180gr and 200gr and sometimes a 168gr. Mostly I like the 180gr in 30-06 and 168 in 308, but the Barnes TSX is an exception for the 30-06.

Thanks for everyone's input.





Is it really worth it for the little velocity gain?

In all truth, probably not, but if you like to experiment and shoot something unique it is.

It's just very personal. Also with the new powders out today you will get much better than 100fps. More like 300fps. That 100fps sounds like Ackleys numbers. He didn't have the good powders we have now.

Best wishes, Bill
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woods
Advanced Member

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  23:50:13  Show Profile Send woods a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey BISCUT

The 270 is a high pressure cartridge anyway and it performs up to my standard already. I like to run a bullet that is medium weight for that caliber between 3000 fps +. In the 270 that would be the 140 gr and the 270 will push the 140 between 3000 and 3100 fps all day long. 270AI dies would be a problem.

The 30-06 on the other hand is a little lacking IMO. With the 180 gr bullet you would be hard pressed to get more than 2850 fps on a cold day with a fast barrel at high altitude. The 30-06AI unfortunately will not speed things up much, but anything is an improvement. I have a friend who has one and he shoots a 180 gr bullet right at 2900 fps which is close to acceptable but not terrific.

Using the same standard of 3000 fps + for an acceptable sectional density bullet, the 280AI fits the bill well. It will shoot the 160 gr bullet at 3000 fps with ease. It is a big improvement over the anemic 280 rem factory loads and about 100 fps more than a hand loaded 280 rem. When I am fireforming, mine shoots lights out as long as you don't try to create a false shoulder



I would not AI a 30-06 but would be not be unhappy to have one.

Now a 338-06AI, shooting a 210 gr TSX bullet at 2800 fps would be a real sweetheart (break my rule for that one)! Or maybe a 6.5-06AI shooting a 140 gr bullet at 3100 fps.


When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.


Edited by - woods on Feb 18 2009 23:51:45
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steve4102
Advanced Member

USA
932 Posts

Posted - Feb 18 2009 :  23:52:23  Show Profile Send steve4102 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had an old Rem 700 30-06 gathering dust in my safe. I didn't much care for this old rifle as it wasn't all that accurate and was just plain old plain old.

One day I got a wild hair and decided to spruce it up a bit with a new wild-n-crazy laminated stock and an AI conversion. The AI conversion cost me $125 an was worth ever penny. There is more to an AI conversion that just ream the chamber. To do it correctly the barrel must to be set back and then the chamber reamed.

I really like the way it turned out. It looks kool, shoots great, brass lasts almost forever and it no longer just sits around gathering dust.

The increased performance, velocity with the AI isn't all that much. With 180gr Partitions the old chamber would start to show high pressure signs at around 2850fps. That's with a factory 22 inch barrel. With the new AI chamber(same 22 barrel), pressure signs will start to show up around 2950-2960fps. That's only 100fps increase, but that's darn near a 300WSM velocities.

The 30-06 AI is better served with heavier bullets and sloooooow powders. I have found the heavier the bullet the greater the increase in performance. At present I am loading 180gr Partitions with a boat load of IMR 7828(heavily compressed) to just over 2950fps.

quote:
Will using a full length size die in AI on standard brass work? If not why? Is it to much of a change to complete with just a FL die?


It may work to size just the neck,but not the case body. The AI not only changes the shoulder angle it also reduces the amount of tapper in the case.
If you are a fan of the Lee Collet die as I am, good news. You can use a standard collet die to neck size AI brass.

Is it worth it, I duno. I like mine and would do it again in a heart beat. I like everything about the 30-06 AI.
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coyoteklr
Advanced Member



USA
802 Posts

Posted - Feb 19 2009 :  17:36:13  Show Profile Send coyoteklr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My 270 AI does preform alot better than a standard 270 case life is much better and accuracy is outstanding.... 270 AI dies are no problem at all...Ackley was ahead of his time but didn't know everything

The first taste of Texas still lingers in my heart and on my tongue.

FASTER HORSES

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