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Crazybastard1983
Average Member
Canada
194 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 07 2009 : 23:40:56
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Hello guys im think about getting into long range target shooting with a muzzle loader 500 yard and 1000 yard gongs just trying to figure out which is the best rifle to go with. I have been looking at the parker hale Volunteer .451 but they are hard to find and also looking at and shot a pedersoli/Gibbs .451 target.
Im just looking for more ideas on muzzleloaders to look at that are able to handle these distances.
Thanks guys
CB83 |
Just Another Krazy Canadian Eh!!
A person who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders! |
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dmsbandit
Advanced Member
USA
1788 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2009 : 06:49:55
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| I know it isn't the type of gun you're probably looking for, but last week I shoot my Savage muzzleloader at 200 yds and I got a 1.25" and 2.1" group at 200 yds. If they shoot that accurately at 200 they may do quite well with big conicals at longer ranges. |
I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline. |
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Crazybastard1983
Average Member
Canada
194 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2009 : 10:12:42
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Yeah they are decent and can go the distance but Im more into traditional muzzleloaders and i dont believe the compition i want to join allows inline. The prefer things like a brown bess or such.
i might pick up an inline to add to my aresnal yet but at the moment Im more interested in original or reproduction ML either flint lock or percussion cap
Thanks
CB83 |
Just Another Krazy Canadian Eh!!
A person who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders! |
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dmsbandit
Advanced Member
USA
1788 Posts |
Posted - Jun 08 2009 : 12:28:42
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| I figured you were in that situation. I just thought I'd pass the info along in case it was open to any muzzleloading weapon. |
I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline. |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2009 : 06:00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazybastard1983
I might pick up an inline to add to my aresnal... CB83
 Do you hate yourself that much? |
 Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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Crazybastard1983
Average Member
Canada
194 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2009 : 08:52:54
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HaHaHa No Wolf I dont hate myself but I do have a colection of traditional ML's now and well an inline would be something else to toy with at the range it would never see the bush I prefer to use a flintlock for hunting and target shooting.
Hey Wolfgang Im just wondering if a 50 cal garner with a 32" pipe would be able to shoot the 500 yard targets or would i be better off with a target rifle like the pedersoli gibbs .451 or a whitworth rifle???
thanks CB83 |
Just Another Krazy Canadian Eh!!
A person who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders! |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2009 : 14:03:41
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From an in-line to a pedersoli .... you into S&M or what? Holy cow! What are they putting in that Canuck water?
Are you going for a PRB or bullet shooter? |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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Crazybastard1983
Average Member
Canada
194 Posts |
Posted - Jun 11 2009 : 20:56:23
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Im planning on shooting paper patched booolits with about 100 grains of FFG Black behind them not sure on what weight of booolit to use either
I know i would be using a 535gr boolit in a pedersoli/gibbs .451 with about 100 - 110 grains of ffg behind it and all boolits will be paper patched.
Cb83
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Just Another Krazy Canadian Eh!!
A person who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders! |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2009 : 10:27:24
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Ahhh, that's a little better. In .45 cal, you want at least 450gr bullet, anything less doesn't give good stability beyond 200yds and can be iffy at that if you're fighting wind/thermal currents. If you go down to a .40 cal, you're going to be running a thin line for 500+ yard shooting until you get to pushing a 430+gr bullet and finding the right design to correspond to your load & bore may get expensive with custom single cavity molds running $180+ each.
There is wild combination of science involved with this but mostly a lot of luck. Doesn't matter how much you calculate, they're gonna do what they're gonna do once you turn them loose. As little as 3gr on the powder charge can make or break the load as can changing the seating pressure and powder granulation. .45cal is more forgiving than others, that's why I chose to go with it on my current hunting ML project. I have my barrels custom made and will be running my own bullet design that gets swaged to the bore before loading. Getting the bullet started straight is half the battle and false muzzles add no less than $300 to the cost and can easily exceed $1000 depending on the method used and quality applied. One fellow I know in Germany is running a custom .43cal pushing a 520gr bullet; the barrel & false muzzle alone cost him over $6,500.
The last .45cal I built was pushing a 480gr FN bullet (I'm focused on hunting guns right now as I have over a dozen people waiting on them) and she was giving me 5" @ 300yds with a bare grooved bullet; PP tightened the groups to 4" but increased the loading difficulty. I kept that same basic design as it produced the best combination of accuracy & wound channel creation but modified the bullet design slightly to reducing loading difficulty in addition to the swaging. I also went from a 1:22 twist to 1:18 twist in the hopes I can up the bullet weight into the 525-550gr range for hunting and correspond to a longer bullet in the 425-475gr range for paper punching. My .45-70 High Wall was made with 1:20 twist and maxed out with a 465gr FBFN bullet to produce 5" @ 400yds. When I went to a production mold dropping a 430gr bullet, accuracy dropped off to 12" @ 400yds and wouldn't get any better no matter what I did to the load. On the other hand, the 420gr Postell style produced great groups out to 600yds (longest I tried them on paper - I don't count plinking at dragline buckets at 900+ in the mines) Only problem was the pointed RN bullet styles suck for hunting application unless you limit yourself to only those shots you know will absolutely stop locomotion because the wound channels are insufficient through soft tissue.
One more thing to consider - a stainless stell vent liner is going to last for only 8-25 shots depending on your load combination and it'll be gas cut wide open. There are those currently running platinum lined nippes & vent liners but you're looking at roughly $80-$100 each. I'm working with a machine mfg on a lower cost alternative.
In case I didn't make it clear, twist rate and rifling depth are critical and in no way can anyone make the statement that 1:xx twist will work with bullet in XXX weight - the bullet design are critical as well and yes, there are times when a heavy bullet will run perfectly in a slower than calculated twist....nope, I don't have a clue why....yet... |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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Crazybastard1983
Average Member
Canada
194 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2009 : 21:28:50
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So Wolf what do you think of a Pedersoli/Gibbs .451 i had the pleasure of shooting one a few weeks back and it was a smooth operation and work well I printed a .75" group at 100 yards with 5 shots i was amazed with myself or maybe i was shaking just right haha
would it be worthwhile to invest in one or a witworth rifle copy or should i stick to a traditional percusion cap ML or a custom built flinter with a tang peep sight
A buddy of mine lent me a nice custom build .50 cal flinter with a 36" pipe and it has 1:36 twist I believe he said its built perfect I had it out today and there is no hesitation as the hammer drops the bullet is on its way faster than a blink of an eye.
which would you use?
Im gunna try the flinter that i borrowed tommorow at 300 yrds and see what it does
thanks a bunch
CB83
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Just Another Krazy Canadian Eh!!
A person who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders! |
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2009 : 09:27:37
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If you like a flinter, by all means go that route. I'm not fond of pedesoli by any means because their level of quality goes from one end of the scale to the other - the only thing consistent is thier inconsistency. I've seen numerous pedersoli's, including one I purchased new myself, come out of the factory not only with general quality issues but with serious and extremely dangerous safety issues! If you get a good one, you're lucky but I wouldn't put a penny of money down until that gun was fully disassebled and inspected inside and out and even then I'd put it on the AmEx card so I could cancel payment later if need be. On the other hand, if you get a good one, it's a good one.
No matter what you choose, it's got to be what makes you happy. In the above post I was just trying to get the point across that no matter what gun you choose, it's liable to be very picky about what it'll shoot well. Generally, if you're going for long range shooting, you want a bullet that is long and heavy. You don't need to worry about velocity aside from the bullet's drop-rate because there are those who load in such a manner as to keep the bullet sub-sonic for the duration of the flight rather than fighting the issues that can arise when the bullet transitions from supersonic to sub-sonic while in-flight ... other times it doesn't seem to have much, if any, affect on accuracy.
You're going about this the right way - try before you buy then go with what suits you best. |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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Crazybastard1983
Average Member
Canada
194 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2009 : 09:47:56
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Ok wolf I will wait until the next shoot and try the flinter i have and see what it can do I will also see if some of the boys will let me try a few rnds outa their guns.
I will let you know which route I take later thanks again for all the info
Cb83 |
Just Another Krazy Canadian Eh!!
A person who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders! |
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woods
Advanced Member
USA
1498 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2009 : 21:24:08
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Buddy of mine just got a Bad Bull. Supposed to hurl a 275 gr bullet at 3100 fps with 140 gr IMR4350 (yes that's right IMR4350 ). Fed215M primer, Shilen barrel, muzzle brake and I told him that he was going to shoot it at the range, not me. A 375 RUM doesn't even push one that fast.
Not traditional muzzleloader but a single shot and legal in some states. He got lucky that I have plenty of IMR4350 and Fed215M's on my shelf.
That one would be good to 1000 yards! |
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Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians.
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woods
Advanced Member
USA
1498 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 14:29:54
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Update:
Last Saturday he let his step-son go to the range at the lease to shoot it. Evidently there was a pop on the first primer and the step-son inserted another primer and it blew up on him. He was not there to supervise, the step-son was 16 or 17 years old or so. The bullet must have moved into the lands on the first primer and the pressure with the second primer blew it up.
He lost part of his thumb and is receiving multiple surgeries on his hand.
Lesson learned for him: if it doesn't fire, set it aside for awhile and then clear the barrel before shooting again. |
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Guns only have two enemies; rust and politicians.
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Wolfgang
Advanced Member
1842 Posts |
Posted - Nov 24 2009 : 20:56:23
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| Unfortunately, that lesson learned is goind to affect him for the rest of his life and I am truly sorry it happened. Our prayers go out for his speedy recovery! Sadly, he is not alone, the advertizing hype for the modern contraptions outweighs the necessary instructions for safe operation. |
Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S. Truman
mark@fire-iron.biz
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Topic |
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Long Range Target Muzzleloaders
