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 Necksize and trimming
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artemistrad
New Member



Netherlands
29 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  03:24:50  Show Profile Send artemistrad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi. I read somewhere that benchrest shooters do trim the cartridges before they neck size them. Is this tru? I do that now but still see after sizing that there is a slight difference in some cartridges. Or am I doing it in the wrong order and must be trimming after necksize? I am scared to ruin the neck tension when it is done afterwards. Who can help me out and clear things. Thanks Mark

Scardycat
Junior Member

USA
48 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  03:54:09  Show Profile Send Scardycat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always trim after sizing. sizing can change the length of the case. I believe most BR shooters only neck size after fire forming to their chamber and this may be why they trim before.

I have enough guns now...OOh look at that one.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9122 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  05:04:53  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trim after sizing. If you are scared that you will ruin the neck tension, you should seriously think about just shooting factory ammo.
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Onondaga
Advanced Member



USA
4017 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  06:38:53  Show Profile Send Onondaga a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by artemistrad

Hi. I am scared to ruin the neck tension when it is done afterwards. Who can help me out and clear things. Thanks Mark




You are wrong and don't understand the basic mechanics of reloading and the characteristics of brass if you have any belief that trimming brass ruins neck tension. The burden of proof belongs to whoever told you that fallacy and influenced you to believe such nonsense.

Gary

Fine rifles are never really owned.

Edited by - Onondaga on Sep 21 2016 06:45:57
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  13:10:42  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How do you know what is happening to neck tension?
If you cannot measure it you cannot make any decisions about it.

Each time the case is fired it expands some if only at the neck.
When it expands it stretches. Since you cannot compress a solid once it is stretched it stays stretched. When you size it (squeeze down the body and or neck) it will elongate and it grows in length. So trimming if necessary is usually LAST.


quote:
Originally posted by artemistrad

Hi. I read somewhere that benchrest shooters do trim the cartridges before they neck size them. Is this tru? I do that now but still see after sizing that there is a slight difference in some cartridges. Or am I doing it in the wrong order and must be trimming after necksize? I am scared to ruin the neck tension when it is done afterwards. Who can help me out and clear things. Thanks Mark



Edited by - Ireload2 on Sep 21 2016 13:18:11
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K22
Senior Member

442 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  19:38:36  Show Profile Send K22 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None of the top bench rest shooter I know neck size their cases. All full size with a .001 to .002" shoulder bump.

They use dies with bushing to precisely control neck tension.

You only need to trim if you are at the max. over all case length.

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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
810 Posts

Posted - Sep 21 2016 :  20:51:51  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Size
Then trim

I only trim once the case gets within 0.010" of the end of the chambers neck.

As long as the brass is within 0.005" of each other, I found no difference in accuracy.
But if it helps you believe it will aid accuracy, there is nothing that will stop the power of the mind.



Treat that trigger like it’s your first date, not like you’ve been married to it for 20 years.
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Oct 03 2016 :  14:16:18  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't be fooled by bench rest shooters.
They use custom and bushing type FL dies. Their FL sizing may only be .002 versus the FL sizing of a production die which can be .006' to .008".

quote:
Originally posted by K22

None of the top bench rest shooter I know neck size their cases. All full size with a .001 to .002" shoulder bump.

They use dies with bushing to precisely control neck tension.

You only need to trim if you are at the max. over all case length.



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F. Guffey
Advanced Member

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Oct 06 2016 :  12:51:50  Show Profile  Visit F. Guffey's Homepage Send F. Guffey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Don't be fooled by bench rest shooters.
They use custom and bushing type FL dies. Their FL sizing may only be .002 versus the FL sizing of a production die which can be .006' to .008".


And then there are a very few reloaders that have a better understanding of the incline plain; I use production dies to size cases for short chambers and long chambers when the long and short is measured from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

I sized cases for short chambers; some of the cases I have sized for short chambers were .017" shorter than a go-gage length chamber and I have sized cases for long chamber; I would describe a long chamber that could be longer than a go-gage length chamber to .010" longer than a field reject length chamber; again when the long chamber is measured from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

When sizing cases for 37 different chamber length I find the companion tool to the press (the feeler gage) most helpful.

F. Guffey

Edited by - F. Guffey on Oct 06 2016 12:53:47
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2016 :  01:45:50  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why can't you stay on topic?
This is not about oddball lengths chambers that you have mentioned all over the internet hundreds of times of times.
The guy simply asked when to trim his brass.


quote:
Originally posted by F. Guffey

quote:
Don't be fooled by bench rest shooters.
They use custom and bushing type FL dies. Their FL sizing may only be .002 versus the FL sizing of a production die which can be .006' to .008".


And then there are a very few reloaders that have a better understanding of the incline plain; I use production dies to size cases for short chambers and long chambers when the long and short is measured from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

I sized cases for short chambers; some of the cases I have sized for short chambers were .017" shorter than a go-gage length chamber and I have sized cases for long chamber; I would describe a long chamber that could be longer than a go-gage length chamber to .010" longer than a field reject length chamber; again when the long chamber is measured from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

When sizing cases for 37 different chamber length I find the companion tool to the press (the feeler gage) most helpful.

F. Guffey

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F. Guffey
Advanced Member

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2016 :  11:27:55  Show Profile  Visit F. Guffey's Homepage Send F. Guffey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Why can't you stay on topic?
This is not about oddball lengths chambers that you have mentioned all over the internet hundreds of times of times.
The guy simply asked when to trim his brass.


As I have suggested there is a lot about reloading a reloader dies not understand. If my chamber is a 'odd ball length' the case will have an 'odd ball length'.

I believe it is important to know how to trim brass and when to trim brass. and then there are step sequences that are ignored and or; there is a big possibility most reloaders given advise on the Internet are unaware of. A reloader that can form a case can also form a case to determine the length of the chamber from the end of the neck in the chamber to the bolt face.

It is not my job to convince a reloader he can do it nor is it my job to convince him it can be done.

I am the only reloader that has cases with two length, one from the shoulder to the case head and another that is measured from the end of the neck to the case head. And then there is that part that drives most to the curb. There is a datum, the datum allows reloaders with a minimum understanding of shop skills to measure the length of the neck from the datum to the case mouth and from the datum to the case head.

F. Guffey


Edited by - F. Guffey on Oct 15 2016 11:30:50
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F. Guffey
Advanced Member

USA
961 Posts

Posted - Oct 15 2016 :  11:41:22  Show Profile  Visit F. Guffey's Homepage Send F. Guffey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Don't be fooled by bench rest shooters.
They use custom and bushing type FL dies. Their FL sizing may only be .002 versus the FL sizing of a production die which can be .006' to .008".
Seriously? Are you serious?

Most reloaders are too impressionable, bench resters claim they have full length sized cases for decades, there are claims they do not neck size etc. and then they talk about ‘their’ die maker like he was making custom shoes and suits for them.

Impressionable reloaders: According to the person telling the story a reloader can be led to believe the accuracy of bench resting can be had with any rifle as long as he
‘does it like a bench rester’.
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Jan 08 2017 :  01:22:08  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most reloaders are not too impressionable.
If you give them a reasonable answer they can make sense out of it and go on with their loading. The problem here is you don't answer their questions. You normally give a pointless monologue totally unrelated to the question. You insult the posters with your mishmash answers and then you wonder why they are confused.
Most know quite a bit so don't come in here and talk down to everyone unless all of us talking down to you is ok.
So why can't you just answer the guy's question on topic rather than trying to act like the absent minded professor.


quote:
Originally posted by F. Guffey

quote:
Don't be fooled by bench rest shooters.
They use custom and bushing type FL dies. Their FL sizing may only be .002 versus the FL sizing of a production die which can be .006' to .008".
Seriously? Are you serious?

Most reloaders are too impressionable, bench resters claim they have full length sized cases for decades, there are claims they do not neck size etc. and then they talk about ‘their’ die maker like he was making custom shoes and suits for them.

Impressionable reloaders: According to the person telling the story a reloader can be led to believe the accuracy of bench resting can be had with any rifle as long as he
‘does it like a bench rester’.



Edited by - Ireload2 on Jan 08 2017 01:24:30
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bwalters99
Advanced Member



945 Posts

Posted - Jan 08 2017 :  10:30:57  Show Profile Send bwalters99 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
artemistrad.....

If consistent neck tension is something you're concerned about, you might consider this. One of the senior guys here on the forum (Woods), taught me a way long ago to get consistent neck tension on every round. First, just seat your bullet. Leave it in place for a period of time. Then pull the bullet.

Yes, it's an extra step or two, but it undeniably works every time. To prove it, measure your inside neck diameter on your shell casing afterwards. You will find that with the springback, that each and every shell will be exactly .002 less than the diameter of your bullet, and that your neck tension will be consistent for all the rounds..

Now I know I'll get flak from the naysayers, and while I respect everyone's "Opinions", I have done this process on several batches of my match rounds, and I know without a doubt that it works...

On your original question, trim before or after, as many of the members here have said, resizing of any nature will stretch your brass, and it's always better to trim after for consistent case OAL...

An edited Note: New brass will have different springback characteristics than fired and resized brass, so it's important that if you are striving for uniform neck tension to make sure the entire batch of brass is at the same place in it's life....

Edited by - bwalters99 on Jan 08 2017 15:13:08
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Bobo7mmmag
Advanced Member

3018 Posts

Posted - Jan 08 2017 :  11:48:44  Show Profile Send Bobo7mmmag a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After, just enough to square up the top.
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