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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2017 :  12:27:23  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Long action and deep throat???

Why not forget the .257 AI and use a .25-06. If you want to use real .257 brass these days you may have to pay $1.00 per case or more.
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9122 Posts

Posted - Jul 22 2017 :  13:04:54  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because Ackley Improved cases are so SEXY! And more efficient! And the cases don't stretch like 25-06 cases tend to do.

Edited by - Shastaboat on Jul 22 2017 13:05:40
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2017 :  18:32:21  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As we have discussed before if you can set your FL die so the shoulder is not set back you do not experience stretched cases. Since you do not have a tool to set your shoulder set back to the nearest .001 I have no doubt that you have case stretching with all cartridges.

In any event it is easy to find .25-06 brass. The last 500 WW .257 Roberts +P cases I had I sold for $1.00 per case because they are now so hard to come by. That is $500 - enough to pay for another rifle.

If you use a full size action you have zero advantage with your AI which also requires fire forming.

The 25-06 uses standard dies.
The 25-06 feeds better.
There is more .25-06 loading data and the data is more reliable too.
If you want a .257 stick with the original Roberts. With the AI you get a a lot of extra baggage for second rate performance.

quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

Because Ackley Improved cases are so SEXY! And more efficient! And the cases don't stretch like 25-06 cases tend to do.

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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9122 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2017 :  20:27:23  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I recently picked up 100 Winchester +P .257 Roberts cases (new) for under $50.00 shipped. I personally own and shoot two Ruger 77 tang .257 Roberts Rifles that I've deep throated and prefer them over a 25-06 as I have easily reached factory .25-06 performance in both rifles. In the past I have worked with a couple of .257 Roberts AI chambered rifles and find them to be equal to or better than the standard 25-06. Anyone can buy and shoot a 25-06 but the .257 Roberts is more efficient.

Ireload2, if you want to shoot a 25-06 that is fine; your choice. You have your opinions and myself and others have their opinions regarding the .257 Roberts and the .257AI. Also I can make all the .257 Roberts brass I want from 7x57, 8x57, 270 Win, 30-06, etc...I probably will never rechamber my Rugers to AI but I might build one someday on a Mauser 98 action. You have stated that you don't have to trim your cases and that is nice. .257 Roberts dies are standard and even .257AI dies are available at a reasonable price. You make some of the most presumptive statements about other handloader's practices. Just have nice day!
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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
810 Posts

Posted - Jul 23 2017 :  22:38:02  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

Because Ackley Improved cases are so SEXY! And more efficient! And the cases don't stretch like 25-06 cases tend to do.



Unfortunately the myth about short fat cases being "more efficient" is just a MYTH. This includes AI designs too. It's all about the powder capacity and chamber pressures.

Handloaders load their ammo HOTTER than factory. This is the truth. Why does the 300wsm make the same velocity as the 300winmag with 150-180gr bullets although it has a little less powder capacity ???
Because it can be safely loaded to 65,000 psi while the 300winmag to 62,000 psi

Also shorter fatter cases burn the powder more uniformly therefore the chamber pressure from shot to shot doesn't change as much as the longer thinner cases. Thus why a 300winmag is going to be loaded ON AVERAGE a few thousand psi under MAX, to take into consideration shot to shot pressure variance and hot climate pressures.
So the 300WSM can be safely loaded by factories much closer to MAX since the pressure variance from shot to shot will be very close to each other.

This is only My opinion and I'm sticking to it !



Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.

Edited by - Zero333 on Jul 23 2017 22:40:26
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9122 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2017 :  11:09:37  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is the reason I believe that AI cases are more efficient and produce higher velocities. The very straight taper design and sharp shoulder promote a more "even" internal pressure throughout the interior of the case. The pressure is spread out against the case sidewalls and do not promote case thrust towards the rear of the case like a conventional tapered case. P.O. Ackley observed this phenomenon and it makes sense. If you haven't experienced this effect, then you probably have no experience with AI cases in any chambering.
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2017 :  12:01:49  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is all old wives tales and is not based on one lick of real physics.
Don't quote Ackley because he has been dead for 28 years and you are merely trying to quote stuff he thought of more than 50 years ago.

Please explain how you promote case thrust toward the rear of the case based on the angle of the side walls. There is a way to do the calculation and if you do that you cannot prove your assertion. What you are saying is that either the case walls slip up the angle of the chamber or that the cases stretch or some sort of magic. So which is it? If the cases stretch why don't the case heads separate? If you have an assertion you have to be able to prove it mathematically. Otherwise it cannot not be proved.


The Ackley AI stuff produces higher velocities because the area under the curve is greater. In other words the time pressure curve is different. It has a higher peak and it has a longer duration because more powder and slower powders are usually used. This results in a greater average pressure under the time pressure curve. It has nothing to do with case shape or any other sort of holding your mouth just right magic. You have more cubic inches of displacement in your engine and your engine runs at higher pressures.

Got any sort of belted magnum designed since 1960 or so? Oopsss I forgot the .300 Savage of 1920 when Ackley was only 17.

Why would you make that claim about only Ackley cases when nearly all modern cartridges use that design. Check out the .284 Win
You can affect extraction and case stretching by proper chamber finish and proper setting of your FL die.

Why stop with Ackley. Did you ever try a Gibbs cartridge? How about the .300 Savage or say a .25 Gibbs. It goes faster than the Ackley AI. Why? Is it magic? Nooooooooooo




quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

Here is the reason I believe that AI cases are more efficient and produce higher velocities. The very straight taper design and sharp shoulder promote a more "even" internal pressure throughout the interior of the case. The pressure is spread out against the case sidewalls and do not promote case thrust towards the rear of the case like a conventional tapered case. P.O. Ackley observed this phenomenon and it makes sense. If you haven't experienced this effect, then you probably have no experience with AI cases in any chambering.


Edited by - Ireload2 on Jul 24 2017 12:29:08
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Ireload2
Senior Member

USA
286 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2017 :  12:20:06  Show Profile Send Ireload2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cannot believe that you can claim you reach 25-06 performance with a .257 Roberts with a standard chamber. Does that mean I can cut a deeper throat in my 25-06 and leave your Roberts in the dust?
How can you claim the .257 Roberts is more efficient on one hand when you brag about maximum velocity on the other. That just proves you are running extremely high pressures. That is not efficient. Efficient is getting 75% of the performance of a .257 with 30 grains of powder in a .25 Rem or a .25-35.

Does that mean I can jack up the pressure of a .22 K Hornet and pass a .222 Rem.

quote:
Originally posted by Shastaboat

I recently picked up 100 Winchester +P .257 Roberts cases (new) for under $50.00 shipped. I personally own and shoot two Ruger 77 tang .257 Roberts Rifles that I've deep throated and prefer them over a 25-06 as I have easily reached factory .25-06 performance in both rifles. In the past I have worked with a couple of .257 Roberts AI chambered rifles and find them to be equal to or better than the standard 25-06. Anyone can buy and shoot a 25-06 but the .257 Roberts is more efficient.

Ireload2, if you want to shoot a 25-06 that is fine; your choice. You have your opinions and myself and others have their opinions regarding the .257 Roberts and the .257AI. Also I can make all the .257 Roberts brass I want from 7x57, 8x57, 270 Win, 30-06, etc...I probably will never rechamber my Rugers to AI but I might build one someday on a Mauser 98 action. You have stated that you don't have to trim your cases and that is nice. .257 Roberts dies are standard and even .257AI dies are available at a reasonable price. You make some of the most presumptive statements about other handloader's practices. Just have nice day!


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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
810 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2017 :  16:07:42  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ireload2: I agree with you but there is no need to come across so strong.

I too thought fat shot cases and AI cases were "more efficient" until I started looking farther down the rabbit hole.

Shastaboat: I apologize... I only wanted to share my opinion, and not to start an argument. And I appreciate the way you present your views. This kinda topics for folks like us make good campfire bickering. I don't want to come across like I think I'm right and others are wrong. I'm no expert at anything thus everything I say is just a fancy opinion.


Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.
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budlight
Advanced Member



USA
1657 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2017 :  16:58:03  Show Profile Send budlight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
my take on the 257AI VS the 25-06 the 25-06 holds @ 6 grains more powder. I have a 257 AI with a ER Shaw 26 inch fluted barrel. I used to shoot a 26 inch custom varmint barreled 25-06 Using modern powders like Superformance or R-26 the 257AI is probably 50+ fps down using under max loads with 117 or 120 grain. These powders exceed anything that you can do with of IMR old rod type powders

So you are saving 6 grains of powder......... If you went to any of the AI -06 chambers you would have real smoking hot FPS at less pressure. I'm all for cases with more capacity

I made a bunch of 257ai from 7mm mouser brass by fire forming.

I probably only load to under 58K pressure for case and barrel life
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Shastaboat
Advanced Member



USA
9122 Posts

Posted - Jul 24 2017 :  19:38:21  Show Profile Send Shastaboat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well today I chronoed my last load test with 120 gr Rem Cor Lokt in one of my deep throated .257 Roberts Ruger 77 tangs. 48 gr of IMR 4350 produced 2956 fps. avg. Remington claims 2900 fps for this bullet in their 25-06 loading. I've never seen a Remington factory loading yet that came close to the published velocity. I only loaded for 3 shot group and figured if I got acceptable accuracy I could duplicate the test and load more. The velocity was consistent with only a 5 fps ES spread. Unfortunately accuracy wasn't there even though I was shooting in a 10 mph crosswind. One round completely missing the scoreable target and the other a good 2" spread. I was hoping to use 4350 but will go back to H100V where I got .500" groups at 2917 fps. Bolt lift was light, primers lightly flat and expansion web at .472"; definitely a safe load. And all in a 22" barrel.

Again if you want to load and shoot a 25-06, that is your business.
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Zero333
Advanced Member



Canada
810 Posts

Posted - Jul 26 2017 :  20:19:32  Show Profile Send Zero333 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deep Throat hehehehehehe

I'm so immature !

Treat that trigger like itís your first date, not like youíve been married to it for 20 years.
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